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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:54 am Post subject: Games Devolving? |
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Eyes Wide Shut
Why games are devolving
There are so many things that I want to say about this article. Most things everyone has heard said from time to time, nothing is particularly new. It makes some awesome points and I wish I had time to highlight them all. Nonetheless I am kind of in a rush today and will just leave with saying I am dead serious that I would buy a new PSP rather then upgrade my firmware and loose emulation if a really excellent new game came out.
I will hopefully come back and make some points later about this and then tie it in with something I read from Ebert. |
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ApM Admin Rockstar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1210 Location: Ottawa, ON
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | The design doc for Origin of the Species is likely one line (“let's make a game about a girl whose panties are showing”) |
And yet look at how that same design document turned out in the case of Space Channel 5! |
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Why do people like Space Channel 5?
-Wes _________________
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ApM Admin Rockstar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1210 Location: Ottawa, ON
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Because it's gleefully ridiculous? It has Space Michael Jackson in it, and can say things like "No one can out-dance evil!" with a straight face. |
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disneyland .
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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I have the design doc for Origin of the Species. It's ironic to use that as an example. The core design is actually way deeper and way more intelligent and ambitious than the game is probably capable of delivering. And you can see Dirt's G-string line. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've had to wash my eyes out with a tray of holy water.
-DL |
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disneyland .
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Compare X-Com to UFO: Aftermath. Or DOOM to DOOM 3. Arena is an unforgettable roleplaying time-thief; Dungeon Lords would be a better game if it came with a savage beating in every box . Xenosaga, awash in mythology containing influences ranging from opera to Jung to General Relativity, nonetheless lacks the crystalline elegance of Phantasy Star. How much of today's output will shimmer in our memories the way Wing Commander, Populous, Metroid, Castlevania , or any of a thousand other Precambrian games do? They didn't have super-accelerated graphics or realistic physics, so they had to be fun instead. |
Which Metroid or Castlevania is he talking about? It sucks when people reference older titles for leverage without really specifying. For example, I'd rather play Super Metroid than the original Metroid. Castlevania? Yeah, it would be Symphony or one of the GBA versions. Oh, but that wouldn't work out too well for Matt making his old-school point, because these games appeared within the last decade -- even though many of them championed or perfected the 2D style of game design he's felating in that quote. So he drops those names, wearing them like some kind of fucking badge of truism...grumble grumble. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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CV2, though. seriously. _________________
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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ApM wrote: | Because it's gleefully ridiculous? It has Space Michael Jackson in it, and can say things like "No one can out-dance evil!" with a straight face. |
Meh. So does [url=http://www.genesiscollective.com/Genesis/BoxScans/Michael%20Jacksons%20Moonwalker%20(BS).jpg]this[/url] and it ain't that great as a game. As a comedic device though, it is golden).
-Wes _________________
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Mister Toups Hates your favorite videogame
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 1693 Location: Lafayette, LA
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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disneyland wrote: |
Which Metroid or Castlevania is he talking about? It sucks when people reference older titles for leverage without really specifying. For example, I'd rather play Super Metroid than the original Metroid. Castlevania? Yeah, it would be Symphony or one of the GBA versions. Oh, but that wouldn't work out too well for Matt making his old-school point, because these games appeared within the last decade -- even though many of them championed or perfected the 2D style of game design he's felating in that quote. So he drops those names, wearing them like some kind of fucking badge of truism...grumble grumble. |
He's probably talking about part 1 for both series.
For my part I'd rather play Metroid 1 than Super Metroid. Ditto for Castlevania. _________________ where were you when nana komatsu got a wii? |
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JasonMoses .
Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 407
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:21 am Post subject: |
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SuperWes wrote: | Why do people like Space Channel 5?
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The original? I have no idea.
Part Two? It's fucking awesome. |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:27 am Post subject: |
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so here's a(n off-topic) question. what's the deal with edge magazine? i've seen some good articles from them online (though i am a sucker for in-game graphics in page layouts). are their articles usually this good? do they more frequently talk about unimportant things like bill gates or playstation 3 controllers? what's the word? _________________
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dark steve .
Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 1110
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:01 am Post subject: |
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And when will I be able to buy it in tower records? |
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TOLLMASTER nippon ichi PR man
Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 187
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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I'm going to go ahead and say that this guy is probably an old fart. I won't say that most games have been lacking in innovation and difficulty lately. I have to say, however, that I think that the author's viewpoint is only natural when you look at the industry as a whole. As gaming becomes a Big Business, there will be a trend towards the flashy, the easy-to-get-into, the just plain easy, the erotic. This is, and has been, what the majority of the people in this world want when they don't have to worry about bills or outright starvation. The fact is, though, that the gaming industry has gotten BIGGER. That means that although we now have an inundation of crap titles, there are still games on the periphery that cater to the more intellectual among the population. After all, though the demand is small, there is a demand, and no demand goes unnoticed for long under capitalism.
So, he's looking at the whole industry and once, and averaging it all out, and calling it "crap." The fact is that nowadays when we don't have the entire industry catering to us, we have to wade through the bullshit to get at what we want. There's still games like Katamari Damacy (a revolution) and Gradius V (an evolution) floating around. It's not that games have gotten worse, it's that we're no longer the only market.
Besides, even the more "popular" games are still quite good. Some people may hate Halo, but those people generally hate the FPS genre as it doesn't agree with them; Halo is a well-made game, when viewed as an evolution of the FPS. It isn't as revolutionary as Thief, but how many games, exactly, were revolutionary? And does a game have to be revolutionary to be good? Of course not! Super Metroid's concepts existed well before the game was even concieved of, and it's considered a classic. Mechassault, a game I was rather dissappointed with, is still a good game, though it has obviously been "dumbed down" from it's revolutionary ancestor, Mechwarrior.
Furthermore, he's giving the game industry of the past an unfair advantage. They were just starting out, so practically anything is going to seem "revolutionary." Meanwhile, game developers now have to think harder to come up with newer ideas instead of rehashes. Katamari Damacy, for instance, is not the kind of idea that would naturally come from previous mediums, while something like Pong is obviously influenced by things which already existed before video games were invented. As simpler ideas are taken, more complex and innovative ones must be thought up to proceed with the medium. What movies have you seen, lately, that were truly revolutionary, or even evolutionary?
So I think all this talk about games devolving is nonsense. In the general sense, you can say that, but we're still proceeding instead of receding. Perhaps if your job is to review games for the proletariat then this kind of view is natural, having to put up with the crap games every day. But as long as we have the potential for small groups of people to work without restrictions, or larger companies actively pushing growth in ideas, we'll continue to have the kind of innovation we're used to.
One final thought: I've always hated Sony for making games mainstream (thereby displacing the geeks as the Vocal Community), and loved Nintendo for their progressive stance on games, despite their avariciousness (as seen by the Pokemon sequels, Mario Parties, etc). Do many of you feel the same way as I do? I ask only because this seems like the place to do it, and think the casting of the focus upon the general public is responsible for the idea that all games are "dumbing down."
Comments? Be as critical as you like. It's entertaining. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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i usually like this guy's column, but i do have to take exception. shit games have always existed, and the ratio of shit to good in, for example, the atari 2600's catalogue is easily 95/5 i think falling prey to the "get your dick out of my hobby" sentiment is somewhat easy for older folks to get into because they have immersed themselves in it for so long they've forgotten that much of their love was based on not knowing any better and a simple joy for the form. things change, and sometimes we forget that.
otherwise you get around to blaming all sorts of shit on the industry; and while i'm in the minority on this i do not think the industry is any more or less full of bunk than it used to be, it's just far larger, which makes the 95/5 ratio seem so much more daunting than it is. i'm a lot harder to entertain, personally, and i don't have time for just dicking around with games. to sit and yell "damn you, industry, for not listening to my sole voice" is fucking stupid.
[puts on old fogey hat]besides i've been playing games for 24 years, longer than some of you punks have been alive! [puts hat away]
sorry, just felt like doing that.
EDIT: i think nintendo are a bunch of punks who get far too much slack for the shit they pull, fwiw. _________________
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ApM Admin Rockstar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1210 Location: Ottawa, ON
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Saying that something sucks does not help much to create things that are good. Neither does saying that something is good. (EVERY GAME JOURNALIST EVER PRAISING KATAMARI DAMACY ALL THE TIME HOLY SHIT LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE NOW)
What helps to create things that are good is when designers understand their medium and use it effectively. Period. We can blame publishers or the industry or whatever, but honestly -- if game designers have the capacity to create great games, and want to do it without getting fucked by The Man, they should just go indie. (THUS, I HEREBY PROPHECY: iD will not be the last great shareware success story. Brilliant gaming will come from the garage again.)
REMEMBER WHEN I SAID JEFF TUNNELL DESERVES HIS BALLS LICKED MORE WELL NOW IS THE TIME
So, I don't know. I quickly tire of talking about The Industry. I've never found it interesting, and I've never found it useful. It's the games that are interesting. |
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | the atari 2600's catalogue is easily 95/5. | He hits on this point. When he is talking about how people said once before that they were told they were making the same games over again and needed something new and fresh (paraphrasing from my quick read) he is refering to this time and the video game crash that followed Atari which Nintendo (with the NES) got us out of.
Perhaps I was reading it wrong.
He admits to parts of it being nostalga as well as there are some current exceptions and great games. He also says that while stating that the same thing happen at the end of the Atari's life: no one listended that there was going to be a lack of consumers if the trend kept happening.
I did not explicitly read this as a "current video games suck" piece. No, I read it as a warning of stagnation.
TOLLMASTER wrote: | One final thought: I've always hated Sony for making games mainstream (thereby displacing the geeks as the Vocal Community), and loved Nintendo for their progressive stance on games, despite their avariciousness (as seen by the Pokemon sequels, Mario Parties, etc). Do many of you feel the same way as I do? I ask only because this seems like the place to do it, and think the casting of the focus upon the general public is responsible for the idea that all games are "dumbing down." |
I agree with you. The rehash games are the money makers that allow them to put out electroplankton. Mario Golf allows them to make Pikmin. After playing Touch! Kirby as of late I have to say that I have regained all hope that Nintendo knows exactly what they are doing. Exactly. |
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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shapermc wrote: | Mario Golf allows them to make Pikmin. |
You talkin' shit about Mario Golf? Mario Golf is twice the man you are.
-Wes _________________
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wourme .
Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 362 Location: Maridia
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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shapermc wrote: | The rehash games are the money makers that allow them to put out electroplankton. Mario Golf allows them to make Pikmin. |
I've wondered sometimes how deliberately planned these things are. Another example is Namco. Maybe their popular fighting and gun games that I couldn't care less about allowed them to make Klonoa. I can certainly imagine commercial game developers viewing a popular sequel or cookie-cutter game as the work that might earn them the right to make what they really want to. Maybe Ubisoft's popular games and Prince of Persia sequels will allow them to make another Beyond Good and Evil or something equivalent. Maybe someone somewhere is waiting for the chance to make an amazing new big-budget 2D platformer that's not on a handheld system. Or maybe I'm just talking about what I'd like to see and know nothing about "the industry."
I don't think the originality, quality, or fun of video games is in any danger. There are plenty of titles on the current platforms that I'll be just as super-nostalgic about in days to come as I am now about my old favorites. And if somehow the commercial industry becomes so oppressive that nothing fun can be made (I don't see this ever happening), creators and players alike will simply turn to homebrew games. Actually, I predict that those are going to really take off regardless. |
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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wourme wrote: | I've wondered sometimes how deliberately planned these things are. |
Everytime this subject comes up I think back to that Ben Affleck's comment at the end of Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. Somethink like: "You have to make the safe movie then make the artsy movie." |
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simplicio .
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 1091
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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SuperWes wrote: | shapermc wrote: | Mario Golf allows them to make Pikmin. |
You talkin' shit about Mario Golf? Mario Golf is twice the man you are.
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Just cause it's fantastic doesn't mean it's particularly original.
I'm certainly biased toward Nintendo, but it's only cause Sony and MS (American divisions) really just want to hit that XTREME market over and over without taking chances, and they never really get artistic/innovative with anything.
I think what the videogame industry really needs is some serious patronage. |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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ApM wrote: | (EVERY GAME JOURNALIST EVER PRAISING KATAMARI DAMACY ALL THE TIME HOLY SHIT LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE NOW) |
YES. PLEASE. i've seen too many "games journalists" become katamari journalists.
mario golf is twice the man i am. TAKE THAT BACK-HANDED COMPLIMENT AS YOU WILL.
i think the industry is in danger of stagnation. i can remember when EA was "electronic arts." _________________
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Mister Toups Hates your favorite videogame
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 1693 Location: Lafayette, LA
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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dessgeega wrote: | ApM wrote: | (EVERY GAME JOURNALIST EVER PRAISING KATAMARI DAMACY ALL THE TIME HOLY SHIT LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE NOW) |
YES. PLEASE. i've seen too many "games journalists" become katamari journalists. |
Oh come now, don't lump them all together like that.
... _________________ where were you when nana komatsu got a wii? |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:58 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | (EVERY GAME JOURNALIST EVER PRAISING KATAMARI DAMACY ALL THE TIME HOLY SHIT LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE NOW) |
not until the sequel comes out.
i really wish we'd get some video game nerd economists up in this shit to explain why TEH CRASH of the 80s has fuck all to do with the current situation. games are no longer a children's niche, or a bar/bowling alley installment. they are integrated into every single facet of life, and rather than having 1 home machine manufacturer dominant, there are three. and so forth.
i remember when ea was electronic arts as well. this means nothing as far as the health of the industry is concerned, anymore than nintendo having "a lot of cash" means fuck all for their longterm health as a single-industry company. _________________
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:04 am Post subject: |
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simplicio wrote: | I'm certainly biased toward Nintendo, but it's only cause Sony and MS (American divisions) really just want to hit that XTREME market over and over without taking chances, and they never really get artistic/innovative with anything. |
Not sure I agree with this on Sony's part. They published Frequency, Amplitude, Gran Turismo, Mark of Kri, Eye Toy, Ico, Omega Boost, Shadow of Colossus, and pretty much every artsy title on the system. They're one of the few publishers who actually take chances. Their marketting is very different from their output. Microsoft used to be this way (Psychonauts, Oddworld, Voodoo Vince, etc.), but dollar signs have gotten in the way and they've become AAA title machine.
-Wes _________________
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simplicio .
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 1091
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:25 am Post subject: |
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Published, not developed. The PS2's dominance in the market (Japan especially) is such that a small, more interesting but less financed developer really has no choice but to go to Sony first and Nintendo/MS second, if at all. |
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:16 am Post subject: |
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But should Sony and Microsoft really be held accountable for the games that third party publishers are willing to finance and put on their machines?
-Wes _________________
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Bai .
Joined: 21 Jun 2005 Posts: 24
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:21 am Post subject: |
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I'm a fan of Sakey's writing but his reasoning was a little vague on this one. He never details why games were 'better' in the past; we're supposed to accept this as self-evident. His definition of 'good' game is also left unqualified: "Innovative games don't sell...innovation has nothing to do with it. Good games, properly marketed, sell"...exactly what does Sakey mean by 'good'? Nostalgic appeals to 'the good old days' when games were 'fun' just don't cut it for me.
Sakey's conclusion that more marketing will create better reception for independent titles is obvious. What's missing is the 'why?'. Why, for example, are unusual games like Katamari Damacy so sparesely marketed even though they would benefit so much? The apparently simple answer: because it's not 'worth it', rests on a complex interplay of economics, technology and programming culture.
Fact: the videogames industry operates on supply and demand. We buy titles with high production values, cutting-edge technology and derivative play structures. Therefore, we demand them and therefore, that's what we will continue to get. Sakey suggests that gamers would accept unusual titles like Psychonauts given half the chance. But a franchise like Final Fantasy with equivalent marketing attention would sell even better. Publishers know where their priorities are. The truth is, we (the general gaming population), would probably choose Final Fantasy over Psychonauts even if the latter were marketed to the moon.
Fact: the need to incorporate high production values and cutting-edge technology has increased the cost of games development, averaging $1 million over two years. Games development has become the exclusive work of wealthy corporations with large studios.
Fact: Corporations have more to lose and less to gain, therefore they will take fewer creative chances. Videogames become more 'commodified' and are perceived primarily as retail products and investment opportunities rather than artistic statements. Over time, the corporate mentality becomes the dominant mentality which brings us to the current situation. If you doubt this, try mentioning 'art' and 'videogames' in a conversation and see how many people dismiss your ideas as pretentious, 'nerdy' and ridiculous!
Fact: modern computer programming is hard. 'Old-school' games like Super Metroid were a lot easier to program, freed from the mathematical complexities of real-time physics, floating point processing, 3D graphics and sound. Programming's increasing complexity has resulted in specialisation. One person will do graphics, another will handle physics, sound, etc. Until videogame programming simplifies or practical middleware solutions emerge, videogame development will favour large, factory-like (usually corporation-based) studios. Less individual input = less wholistic, creative 'vision' or auteur effect. Yes, there are exceptions (Miyamoto, Kojima) but they are exceptions and not the norm.
Solution:
1. Educate the public (through publications like Games Quarter, Edge, etc.), stimulate their play tastes and habits beyond stealing stuff and blowing shit up.
2. Greater development efficiency = smaller teams, game design becomes a more intimate process.
3. Alternative distribution channels.
4. Speak with your wallet. Don't buy games until they start making 'good' ones! I haven't bought a game in years! |
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:40 am Post subject: |
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Bai wrote: | Fact: modern computer programming is hard. 'Old-school' games like Super Metroid were a lot easier to program, freed from the mathematical complexities of real-time physics, floating point processing, 3D graphics and sound. Programming's increasing complexity has resulted in specialisation. One person will do graphics, another will handle physics, sound, etc. Until videogame programming simplifies or practical middleware solutions emerge, videogame development will favour large, factory-like (usually corporation-based) studios. Less individual input = less wholistic, creative 'vision' or auteur effect. Yes, there are exceptions (Miyamoto, Kojima) but they are exceptions and not the norm. |
I think this is probably one of the most important things that leads me to belive that 3D games are teh evIl. Inherently the cost of them makes it so that they will find grooves to fall in and become cookie cutter. I don't know. I know this is not true. Okami looks amazing, KD is amazing, RE finally broke out of its groove, I may play Killer 7 this weekend. I don't know where I am going with this train of thought, at least I can't type it out. |
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:27 am Post subject: |
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SuperWes wrote: | Frequency, Amplitude |
Harmonix yo. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:53 am Post subject: |
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does anyone really think games started as an "artistic statement?"
love capitalism, for it loves you despite slapping its dick in your hobby's porridge. _________________
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Bai wrote: | 4. Speak with your wallet. Don't buy games until they start making 'good' ones! I haven't bought a game in years! |
I'm dropping the BS bomb on this one too. If you're not buying games how can you know if they're any good? There are many good games out there. In fact, almost every game released these days is at least competent, which is more than I can say for previous generations. Often times games "about stealing stuff and blowing stuff up" are usually pretty good, even if they don't meet your specific taste in games.
In my eyes, the biggest difference between the current generation and previous generations is that the market driven stuff is actually good nowadays. Remember when Acclaim or THQ would buy a movie or TV show license and release a game that is nigh-unplayable just to captialize on the name of the license? Well, it's not totally gone, but it's much better than in the SNES or Playstation days. Think about the licensed games out there now. If you're a fan of the license it's now possible to actually enjoy the games based on it. Compare Spiderman 2, Riddick, Transformers, Batman Begins, and Fantastic Four to Spiderman and Venom in Maximum Carnage (SNES), True Lies (NES), Transformers: Beast Machines (N64), Batman and Robin (PS), and Fantastic Four (PS). It's insane how much better the modern day stuff is. That's why there's a glut of "crap." Somebody figured out that making good games on good licenses equals good profits.
Yes, the decrease in the number of original games is disappointing, but at least there's a higher number of good games.
-Wes _________________
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ee_emm_ecks .
Joined: 08 Jul 2005 Posts: 98 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:59 am Post subject: |
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Dhex - I sure don't. Though I fail to see how that has much to do with people wanting games that are like that. Then again, it's more about how someone views the game than the intent behind it, eh? |
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:21 am Post subject: |
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SuperWes wrote: | In fact, almost every game released these days is at least competent, which is more than I can say for previous generations. Often times games "about stealing stuff and blowing stuff up" are usually pretty good, even if they don't meet your specific taste in games. |
2 things.
1) This usually happens towards the end of a generation, and things stagnate through first two thirds. Those games that were "revolutionary" and have been in production for a long time are now coming out (Killer 7, RE4). The shift to the next generation will pull things back. Just look at the PSP lineup to see this. Also, there is still a majorty of games coming out that I consider ignorable.
2) Often times those games are not that good. The thing is that it is a majority so you get more good games from that catagory. So if "stealing stuff and blowing stuff up" is 80% of the market and only 5% of that is good it is still a much larger number than the 20% of good games from another genera. I am not justifying other generas here, just pointing to numbers.
Bottom line: the DS is finally getting some excellent games. So far Touch! Kirby (Kirby's Canvas Curse) is my favorite game of the year. |
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SuperWes Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 3725
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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1) Not sure if I agree with this. It seems like the most revolutionary ideas come out during the early middle of a system's lifespan, when designers have figured out what the system can do and are experimenting with what they know to figure out exactly what they can do to push the system. It's when they've figured things out that things start to get samey. The DS is really good right now because it's just reached the point where people have figured out how the system works and now they're trying to use that to its full advantage.
Also, just because you consider a game ignorable doesn't make it bad. I consider all sports games to be ignorable every year, but apparently they're actually pretty good lately.
2) But they ARE pretty good right now. Name off some truly terrible games during this generation. I can't think of many. Games that don't suit my tastes? Many. Games that are really bad? Few.
I'll put Enter the Matrix up there as a game that's just good enough not to be bad. What's worse than Enter the Matrix?
-Wes _________________
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disneyland .
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Looking at the desktop here of my PC as an example...
I have start-up icons for: Far Cry, Doom 3, Half-Life 2, Painkiller, Tribes Vengeance, Riddick, Battlefield 2, World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, Freedom Force vs. 3rd Reich, and GTA: SA.
A few of you are no doubt cringing at a couple of these titles for whatever reason, but the bottomline here is that yes, they are all absolutely competent games. Excellent production values, highly playable and entertaining. They are great examples of their respective genre. See, you could decide that you despise a Doom 3 or a GTA based-on whatever personal issue you might have, but the overriding fact of the matter is that both of those games, compared to many, many other games out there, are extremely competent.
Really though, I'd have to agree that we aren't lacking for basic quality these days in games. Fundamentally new and creative designs? Yeah, ok sure. But our mid-to-top games of this era are pretty damn competent in terms of presentation and gameplay, and that wasn't really the case in previous generations. Certainly, as mentioned, shit like movie license games--where the quality used to be abysmal--have improved. |
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dark steve .
Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 1110
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Fight Club's worse than just about anything.
But a mediocre, boring game is more terrible than a "bad" one. |
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm, I don't disagree with any of these things, but look at it in a different way. 30 years from now only the creame of the crop will be left and talked about, and the other 98% will be all but forgotten. When you take that creame of the crop I prefer playing the older creame then the newer for replay value (oh shit, I did just use that term!).
I am not looking at how entertaining a game is for a weekend, I am looking at a much larger picture here. Disneyland, your Doom 3 example: Doom/2 will be more widely looked back upon and remembered then Doom 3 ever will. This is not saying it is a sub-par product in anyway (although I don't have much desire to play it). |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Though I fail to see how that has much to do with people wanting games that are like that. |
the gentleman in question had said games were wrenched from their artistic cocoon by the forces of commerce and depravity. i disagree.
intent is something else entirely. people have told me that san andreas' makers intended it to be a commentary on capitalism and consumerism, which is, well...that's their business, but i think they failed pretty miserably. and maybe picked the entirely wrongest forum in the universe ever to do so. _________________
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ApM Admin Rockstar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1210 Location: Ottawa, ON
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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dhex, if you want me to start giving long-winded speeches about the birth of hacker culture, you just have to ask. If you don't think Spacewar was written for the sole purpose of capturing some sci-fi wonder, you're kidding yourself.
I mean, really. Videogames were born in academia, by some kids fucking around with ludicrously expensive equipment.
Of course, this is all irrelevant to anything. What I want to know is, why is it so easy to think of The Publishers as some monolithic entity? Where are the indie record labels of videogaming? Surely there's opportunity here. |
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disneyland .
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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I still see a company like Valve as strong indie. They'll be officially indie in August when the contract with Vivendi ends. I don't think there's a better distribution model out there than Steam. See what Ritual just announced? They'll be releasing the sequel to SiN exclusively through Steam, and it will continue in episodic story content every couple of months.
Gabe Newell: "One of our goals for Steam and Source is to provide a viable platform for independent developers who would rather be working on original IP."
BioWare is also trying to make it really comfy for indies with their official Neverwinter Nights modules. Something similar is being planned for Dragon Age.
Digital distro. is the direction for indies. Works on PC now, should mature on next-gen consoles with the storage options and on-chip security. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | If you don't think Spacewar was written for the sole purpose of capturing some sci-fi wonder, you're kidding yourself. |
sure...but that has 0.00% of fuckall to do with video games as a medium more than a handful of nerds could participate in, which is what we're talking about. i.e. that very wresting the only reason 95% of us have ever played a game in the first place.
which may be the unconscious root of mr. jutla's "homosexual ping pong" thing, if you think about it sideways enough. sort of like bands of juvenile chimps sodomizing each other, except with more glasses.
you can ru sirus-ize me to your heart's content, however. it would be interesting.
as for the indie rawkerz, well...barriers to market entry as far as consoles are concerned, and well...maybe nerds are too undisciplined to create semi-complex games without the guiding hand of ilsa, she wolf of the EA SS (systems supervision)
i.e. i really have no idea. _________________
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Mister Toups Hates your favorite videogame
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 1693 Location: Lafayette, LA
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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"Extremely competent" is about the worst insult I could give a game. _________________ where were you when nana komatsu got a wii? |
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TOLLMASTER nippon ichi PR man
Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 187
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Mister Toups wrote: | "Extremely competent" is about the worst insult I could give your mother. |
I think you're missing the point, you silly bastard, you! Games have gotten better, in the sense that games are no longer unplayable. These days, a game will only sell if there is a certain production value in it. GTA3 didn't become a huge seller just because it had violence; it had good gameplay as well. And with game production costs so high, the industry can't afford bad word of mouth. So it's not that games suck nowadays. What I think the author is complaining about, really, is that he isn't the focus of the industry anymore. There isn't as much room in the industry for geek games like Star Control 2 anymore; games have to appeal to the mass market. Look at what the developers of SC2 have been working on lately: Disney games and Madagascar. Good games, yes, but not exactly what the author of the piece would prefer to play.
I think the reason we talk about Katamari Damacy so much is because it's representative of what we'd like the industry to be more like; the fact is, there just isn't that much ingenuity out there to cover every videogame. Genius comes in leaps and bounds and all that. |
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Mister Toups Hates your favorite videogame
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 1693 Location: Lafayette, LA
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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The competency is exactly why they are devolving. We've gotten to where we can consistenly make a game engine that isn't fundamentally flawed in any way, and we rarely go further than that because we can slap fancy production values on it and people will eat it up anyway.
The question is, will they continue to eat it up? _________________ where were you when nana komatsu got a wii? |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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bah! you are wrong sir, and a liar!
[ratatatatatatat]
seriously though, better tools leads to better horizons. more competition will help. there's far too many people pursuing game design for some shit not to go down. _________________
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wourme .
Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 362 Location: Maridia
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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I like some games that are kind of rough around the edges. In the commercial world, I mean things like Irem's Disaster Report and some of those budget PS1 games that small companies suddenly started pouring out (that is, localizing) a year or two ago.
I think the king of flawed commercial games is SNK's Athena for NES. I first learned of it because it was the only NES game a friend of mine could not beat on demand. He was very good at video games. I later got a copy of the game myself. I was amused to see some of the sprites that were later used in Crystalis (possibly my single favorite video game if I had to choose just one), and to see how absurd the game's bugs were. I set out to beat the game with Game Genie after giving up on a legitimate victory. I found that the programming bugs became so intense later that the levels were scrambled and it was still impossible. No, the game wasn't particularly fun, but the poor programming made it so random and interesting that I guess I liked it in the end, and I certainly have fun memories of it.
Another thing I've come to really enjoy in recent years is amateurish homebrew games found within game creation program communities. The kind that is very original and that the creator put his or her heart into, but that seriously lacks polish and that you don't really know what to expect from. I have more fun with these than with a lot of commercial games. Even really good commercial games are very predictable in some ways. Too safe, somehow. Not sure what it is, exactly.
I guess this might all be kind of off topic. Sorry about that. |
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disneyland .
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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In Eyes Wide Shut: Why games are devolving - Matt Sakey wrote: Quote: | Recently I've been playing a wonderful independent game called Mount & Blade. Every professional developer should download the demo and play it. It's what games used to be like before they became predictable and unexciting, lost in a creative doldrums that's gone on since 1999. |
Downloaded. Played for 2 hours. Tried very hard to get inside Matt Sakey's mindset and see what he's seeing in the game, and see how it applies to his overall message. Wanted to understand how Mount & Blade could feel unpredictable and exciting, or how it's some of the most creative shit around since 1999.
Just...no. It has sabotaged the integrity of his article for me. |
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Mr. Mechanical Friendly Stranger
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1276
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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I've heard Mount and Blade is only really good if you're willing to build up your character. I started a game myself a few weeks ago but haven't touched it since. |
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disneyland .
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 131 Location: Shinsei
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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I'll keep plugging away at it then. Starts out very rough. |
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TOLLMASTER nippon ichi PR man
Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 187
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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wourme wrote: | I like some games that are kind of rough around the edges. In the commercial world, I mean things like Irem's Disaster Report and some of those budget PS1 games that small companies suddenly started pouring out (that is, localizing) a year or two ago.
I think the king of flawed commercial games is SNK's Athena for NES. I first learned of it because it was the only NES game a friend of mine could not beat on demand. He was very good at video games. I later got a copy of the game myself. I was amused to see some of the sprites that were later used in Crystalis (possibly my single favorite video game if I had to choose just one), and to see how absurd the game's bugs were. I set out to beat the game with Game Genie after giving up on a legitimate victory. I found that the programming bugs became so intense later that the levels were scrambled and it was still impossible. No, the game wasn't particularly fun, but the poor programming made it so random and interesting that I guess I liked it in the end, and I certainly have fun memories of it.
Another thing I've come to really enjoy in recent years is amateurish homebrew games found within game creation program communities. The kind that is very original and that the creator put his or her heart into, but that seriously lacks polish and that you don't really know what to expect from. I have more fun with these than with a lot of commercial games. Even really good commercial games are very predictable in some ways. Too safe, somehow. Not sure what it is, exactly.
I guess this might all be kind of off topic. Sorry about that. |
No need to apologize. I'd like to say something on the topic of "unfinished" homebrew games, actually:
There's a lot of them, but far fewer finished ones. We need some sort of "match up" system to get the right teams together for the right projects. Let's use Toups as an example. Say Toups is bored every weekend, and sits there with his creative mind and impeccable writing ability. Well! If we had some sort of "match up" system, he could help polish out in a small way a larger game. Say the game is a fan-created Star Control 3 (like, for reals) and they let Toups design one or two races. Bingo! Instant classic. It would have the ingenuity of a small group (possible topic for a GQ article!) while the production values of a large one.
All we'd need is a system in place to match different skilled people up, and we'd have something happen. Possibly a mess, but an interesting one nonetheless. To revive a dying thread from the throes of internal bickering: any ideas? |
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