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All I know about FPS games I learned from George Romero
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helicopterp
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:02 pm    Post subject: All I know about FPS games I learned from George Romero Reply with quote

Here's a Left 4 Dead thread. I'm going to start the demo as soon as it finishes downloading.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'm hooked. Valve really nailed a way to get players to work together.
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Winged Assassins (1984)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a question, are the zombies the fake Hollywood fast zombies like in the Dawn Of the Dead remake or are they the proper shambling corpse variety of zombie?
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winged Assassins (1984) wrote:
I have a question, are the zombies the fake Hollywood fast zombies like in the Dawn Of the Dead remake or are they the proper shambling corpse variety of zombie?

Fast Zombies.

-Wes
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helicopterp
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, they waddle until they decide to eat you. Then they're fast zombies.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hunters always freak out though, jumping all around being ninja zombies.
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Winged Assassins (1984)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cancel my interest in the game then.
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Redeye
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tried the demo last night and today.

Totally linear. Really- although there are side areas with the odd supply or mini-ambush, you only get to go down one path.

Perhaps with human allies instead of bots you could work in a tiny bit of tactics/strategy, but I'm seeing something tight and intense and pretty good looking that is also just more of the same twitcher shit.

What's this with only one gun or one explosive at a time? I smell console mentality.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried this demo in 2 player split screen yesterday. It's decent, but I feel like I've just been drowning in amazing shooters lately. After Gears 2 and Resistance 2 playing this kind of feels like taking several steps backwards. I guess the draw is co-op, but without 4 player split screen I'm afraid I'm just not all that interested.

-Wes
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helicopterp
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Redeye, I think the variation comes from the random-ish enemy deployment and player-generated spontaneity (is it fair to call the latter a design feature in this game?), not from the layout of the levels. The levels function more like staffs of music, with players fill in the notes and rests. Someone somewhere compared it to Ms. Pacman. In other words, you're right about how linear it is, but I'm not sure it's the problem you make it out to be. (However, there is a way to skip the entire apartment at the beginning.)

I've startled a lot of witches against the wishes of my teammates. Woops!

The Tanks glitch occasionally, which is an issue that needs to be resolved, even if it makes them much, much easier to take down. One attacking my squad got stuck inside the subway train and couldn't move. Another got snagged and immobilized in the remnants of a rebar that it had destroyed earlier.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, it looks like its plenty fun with other people.

Reminds me of cross-coverage in an mmo.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

helicopterp, my steam name is dmauro. Add me tonight. Gamestop didn't get my copy in today, so I might just buy it on Steam instead. If I'm not on tonight I'll definitely be on tomorrow night.

(edit: I've been playing the demo like crazy. I put over 10 hours into those two levels. This might beat out Brawl for my fav of '08, but we'll see)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure anything can beat out Brawl for my '08 of the year. It's more rad than rad. But I guess I'll see once I get to the rest of the levels in Left 4 Dead.

Having said that: I can't run Steam on my Mac! I'm limited to the 360 version! So don't get hasty with the computer version if you want to save me from being eaten alive. And you do so want to save me from being eaten alive, right?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had an amazing time with this on Steam. Played through the demo three times and each time as we got better and better, the AI Director stepped up to the plate and threw new challenges at us to keep us on our toes. The difficulty kept being ramped up until it was Witches and Tanks everywhere, and the indescribable joy of unloading round after round of automatic shotgun blindly into an oncoming horde, your vision obscured by Boomer bile as you desperately back towards the safe room, was never so bittersweet. I loves it.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winged Assassins (1984) wrote:
Cancel my interest in the game then.


What are you for serious reals

I didn't even know there was such a thing as a zombie purist. The game is fun! Enjoy it.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just think zombies that can run is stupid. They are reanimated corpses, their motor skills would be too messed up to move at anything faster than a leg dragging shamble or a jog for one that's a little "fresher". Then there's the whole rotting thing, they'd probably just fall apart if they ran.

Voodoo zombies are allowed to run since they're still living people who aren't all there in the head, so they appear dead. Like people who listen to The Grateful Dead I suppose but that's what happens when you are high all day long.

I'm probably the only person here who feels about zombies to this extent so you can ignore me if you want, I don't mind.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I understand it, they technically aren't zombies in the reanimated corpse sense. Rather, they are living humans infected with a highly contagious form of rabies that causes them to attack anyone without the disease. The player characters are among a minority of humans who are immune to the plague. In that regard, it makes sense that the infected should be able to move as fast or faster than the survivors. If anything, that seems more believable than corpses coming out of their graves.

Redeye wrote:
What's this with only one gun or one explosive at a time? I smell console mentality.

I don't think being limited to a few weapons at a time is particularly console-centric. Rather it's in place to enhance realism and variety. Carrying double your weight in weapons as some games allow is bordering on absurd. One could at least argue that Gordon Freeman's HEV suit allows him to carry around a small arsenal while jumping around like a gymnast, but non-enhanced humans simply shouldn't have that ability. I read that Valve originally experimented with limiting what you could carry in Half-Life 2, but reverted to the prior game's weapon system after some product testing. In some ways, I think that would have made the game more interesting and replayable. With a more limited supply of ammo and not always the best weapon for the task at hand, you would need to experiment with the gravity gun more often, which is where the game really shines. Left 4 Dead's focus is on replayability of a limited number of scenarios, and by changing your loadout, you will also change how a given area plays.

Redeye wrote:
Totally linear. Really- although there are side areas with the odd supply or mini-ambush, you only get to go down one path.

I agree with that, to some extent. The position and frequency of items and enemies change, and sometimes zombies won't tear down a wall, forcing you to take a slightly different path, but the levels feel largely pre-defined aside from those small detours. One thought I had while playing is that this would be the perfect game to make use of a GTA-style open city. You could have a GPS displaying the locations of safe houses and objectives, and take whatever path through the urban environment you'd like to reach them. Of course, that would require a longer, more expensive development cycle, and this game seems to have been produced at a relatively low budget. Maybe in a sequel, if Valve ever makes their engine capable of handling such largescale environments.

I had quite a bit of fun with the demo, though I might not pick up the full version for a while. I have too many games sitting unplayed as it is. Apparently the PC version can be modified with the Source SDK as well, so there will probably be a number of custom map packs and mods available for it in the coming months. I've heard there may be official downloadable conent as well, which makes sense given the episodic nature of the game's scenarios.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Originally in Half-Life 2, you were only supposed to be able to carry one weapon at any time.

Somehow I think that approach would have worked better if it was a game with full-body visualisation.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

helicopterp wrote:
I'm not sure anything can beat out Brawl for my '08 of the year. It's more rad than rad. But I guess I'll see once I get to the rest of the levels in Left 4 Dead.

Having said that: I can't run Steam on my Mac! I'm limited to the 360 version! So don't get hasty with the computer version if you want to save me from being eaten alive. And you do so want to save me from being eaten alive, right?

Man, you really need to take care of that Mac problem you've got. Smile

We'll pour a bottle of pills out for you in the next game on Steam.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That means a lot to the homey who can't be with you.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winged Assassins (1984) wrote:
I'm probably the only person here who feels about zombies to this extent so you can ignore me if you want, I don't mind.

Nah, I'm right there with you. I watched my roommates play the demo of this and didn't enjoy it at all. One of them made fun of me for my burning dislike of running zombies.
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dmauro
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about running people that are infected with a scary disease which you are immune to?

I've been playing the game at an unprecedented rate. In two evenings I logged 16 hours. :0
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what are the rules for this game in terms of split screen and online modes, for 360?

It has 2 player only split screen? can those 2 players than connect online?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the two split-screen players then can connect online via only one live account. Although, I think only one of them gets full mic use (?)

if i remember right, that's better than halo.


Just died a lot on Blood Harvest and No Mercy. Watched the computer player be the only survivor out of the farm house. Survived Dead Air and Death Toll, though. The achievements for this game are grand.


Anyone else think the cornfield in Blood Harvest is one of the best things ever? "Things" as in all nouns.


So far, every game I've played I've been the best witch startler. Dubious honor.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

helicopterp wrote:
the two split-screen players then can connect online via only one live account. Although, I think only one of them gets full mic use (?)

if i remember right, that's better than halo.

In Halo 2 and 3 you can take three guests online with you. Only the player with an account gets voice though. So, it's not as good as Halo, but it's good that they included the ability for local split-screen to go online.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tried my hand at expert on a couple levels last night; got a really nice group and plowed through most of Blood Harvest before getting disconnected at the last stage.

Argh: Blood Harvest officially hates me. I got disconnected the first 5 times I tried to play it, the last of them from inside the truck while waiting for my teammates to make it in. Infuriating.

Then I played some expert No Mercy (that's the one with the gas station by the lift, right? Or is it Dead Air? Death Toll? Like dmauro, I've been playing to the detriment of my sleep cycle, and my memory's a bit foggy today.) with a not-so good group, and we got slaughtered each time; expert's a serious bitch when you've only got Uzis. I'm also seeing a great reluctance among many players to move forward, even in versus mode where that's really your only hope. Kinda frustrating, though I got a mic finally and that seems to motivate them a little better.

What a fantastic game though! GOTY 2008 for me, by miles.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two great moments:

1) In No Mercy, I was killed by an exploding gas station. I couldn't have felt safer the moment before.

2) Dead Air, in the terminal. We clear the area when all of a sudden this joker in my group says, "Hey, do you think I can make it past security?" I look back as he walks through the lone upright metal detector. It's still functioning. The alarm goes off because he's armed to the teeth, and it alerts another horde.



Played with my roommate last night passing back and forth the only controller at every safe house.

Simplicio, are you playing pc or the box?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and I still crack up every time I hear something like, "Oh no....Zo--Hey health packs over here!!!" as my character stands over a teammate's corpse.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Upon this threshold of disaster
The birth of the eleventh plague
The fires burn at night, I begin to doubt the smell of burning flesh
Will ever fade away

The touch of death is all around us
A thousand corpses block our way
A man-made germ makes almost everyone commit suicide
Just to rise and eat the dead
Night of the living Dead...

We're hunting humans
We're hunting humans
We're hunting humans
It's killing time every day

I can't control this eerie feeling
An evil screaming in my head
I don't think I'll last the night
There is no cure
For this genocide
Or resurrection of the dead
Night of the living Dead...

We're hunting humans...
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

helicopterp wrote:

Simplicio, are you playing pc or the box?


PC. I generally play with the hunting rifle, and I can't imagine it being effective with an analog stick. Is difficulty adjusted to compensate?

I posted a little on SB about how the personification of the Director is very important; much was made of it in the previews, so now the players have this incorporeal nemesis, flaunting what all Tetris players have long suspected: the system is malevolent.

ALSO: Requesting thread title change to "Everything I know about FPS games I learned from George Romero"
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's aim assist, but without any kind of PC experience, I'm not sure how big a role it plays. What it amounts to, I think, is the fact that even though analog sticks rarely stay dead center if there's a thumb on them, there's a larger dead-zone of movement in the center, making rests and set shots easier. Wide spray fire, of course, doesn't require nearly that kind of precision, so it would make sense that the wide movements feature less assist. I used the hunting rifle all day today, too. Happy to see my head-shot percentage much higher up. It's not as useful in the swarms at the end of each chapter.

It's an interesting feat of public relations that Valve can get the press wrapped up in aspects of its game design. The AI director now, the silhouettes in TF2. I must have read the silhouette story in twenty different places. The press doesn't realize they're swallowing the same kind of advertising as a press release lauding a game's bullet points.

Of course, it helps that the product is so well-made.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

helicopterp wrote:
It's not as useful in the swarms at the end of each chapter.

I've found the ability to kill two in one shot makes up for it, myself.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

helicopterp wrote:
Dead Air, in the terminal. We clear the area when all of a sudden this joker in my group says, "Hey, do you think I can make it past security?" I look back as he walks through the lone upright metal detector. It's still functioning. The alarm goes off because he's armed to the teeth, and it alerts another horde.


OH MAN

I was doing this last night and one of us was about to go through, and another one said "Woah man, don't, it could go off and bring the horde down on us". Then we all stood around going "Man, now I want to set it off just to see."

Then we didn't. We were too weak.

But man, it's good to know that. That rocks so hard.

Also, the hunting rifle: great in open areas, completely fucking useless in a tight spot. Automatic shotgun all the way - basically guaranteed kills, and really ammo-efficient.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

re: more guns
Uh if you had all five guns, multiple pipe bombs, multiple molotovs, multiple health packs, and multiple pill bottles you could play through the damn game alone, obviously not what they were shooting for.

I mean that's just that. Additionally, it prevents someone from hording stuff, keeps the interface simple, and requires that every player suit up and keep equipped through the stages.

For the running zombie thing, I don't even know. I guess indie kids are Zombie purists like goth kids might be Vampire purists. Though getting over your supernatural hang-ups will introduce you to a lot of great games and movies.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Great Unwashed wrote:

Also, the hunting rifle: great in open areas, completely fucking useless in a tight spot. Automatic shotgun all the way - basically guaranteed kills, and really ammo-efficient.


I still don't get this- I don't notice any difference in stopping power between the two at close range. How many infected does a single shotgun hit take down?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well at close range you can usually get at least two with one shot. I realise the hunting rifle penetrates better than a man named "Butch" at a minimum-security prison, but the sheer spread and rate of fire of the auto-shotgun means that you can basically lay down 6-7 seconds of ultramurder without having to stop to think. Then whip out your dual-pistols, assuming there's anybody left, and finish them off. It's very rare that any oncoming horde will survive through both of those. Plus against the Tank the auto-shotgun allows you to get in close and unload your entire clip into him, which usually does 40-50% of his health (or so it seems). I love the hunting rifle for the open areas, and when you don't want to set any alarms off, but for sheer versatility and corridor-ownage-power, it's the auto-shotgun for me anytime.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen the light. All hunting rifle. All the time.

I like that it does more damage zoomed in, so if the tank gets distracted by other people, you can back up and really hit it hard. Big if, but still. And the 15 shots privileges it over the shotgun in my view--and I think the rifle fires quicker.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah but the shotgun allows you to make momentum where as the hunting rifle requires you snipe or rely on the zombie's momentum. Certainly it's good, but I think the weapon balance is pretty good also.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish you could open up fire hydrants then shoot down a power line to make a mass-death zone.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My zombie source book says that zombies are an insulator not a conductor.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The hunting rifle definitely has its place. We always try and make sure at least one person in the group has one, they're insanely useful for the open areas and the seige-ey parts of the campaign. I'm just saying, in a tight spot and for its sheer versatility, the auto-shotgun is my weapon of choice. Also I'm pretty sure it fires much, much faster than the hunting rifle though I could be wrong!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simplicio wrote:
ALSO: Requesting thread title change to "Everything I know about FPS games I learned from George Romero"

Very Happy

I've been rolling with the hunting rifle more and more. I should go back to the M16 again for a bit and see how that feels, but I just love being able to pick hunters off of people at any distance in half a second (as long as any shotty players don't get in my way to melee the hunter).
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SuperWes
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Updated the banners, but not his title


Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This game looks great and I liked the demo, but I'm not picking it up for three reasons:

1. Co-op is limiited to two players locally instead of four.
2. There is no single player mode, making it impossible to casually jump in and out of.
3. This game seems to be all about the shooting and I find the shooting to be the least interesting aspect of FPS games.

Let me know if I'm incorrect on any of these points, but as it stands it's a game I might pick up when the price drops.

-Wes
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The Great Unwashed
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Joined: 27 May 2006
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Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Could be mitigated if you played it on a PC, on a LAN..
2) Again, the PC version has single-player on it. Not that I expect, based on your post history, you to ever, ever pick up an FPS game on the PC. Wink
3) Now you're just confusing. Isn't that like saying "strategy is the least interesting part of RTS games for me". Or "solving puzzles is the least interesting part of puzzle games for me".
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helicopterp
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Joined: 13 May 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. You're right on, Wes.
2. 360 also has single player. Plus, there's a "quickplay" feature, and no substance to the plot whatsoever. There's nothing to get caught up in. The only way to play this game is go jump in and out, unless you want to get invested on a social level.
3. This game is about surviving, and your best tool for survival is shooting. But it isn't your only tool.
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simplicio
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Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Is it possible to chain xboxes (with separate TVs I guess) LAN-style?
2. Is there no "join game in progress" option on xbox?
3. There's a lot more teamwork and tactics involved in the full version, really (perhaps mainly cause it's much harder, but the length of the missions have something to do with it too). And the nature of the game seems to throw strangers together better than I had expected; I've had a blast playing, and I have yet to coordinate a friend match.
3b. There's the entire Versus mode as well, which gets extremely tactical; as the infected you've got to work together cause you're entirely weak alone, but very good at killing an isolated human. As infected, you've got xray vision of all other players (on both teams) which presents you with both the urge to rush straight in to fight and the possibility of hanging back to wait.
4. It's probably the best game of the year? I mean, you seem to buy a lot of crap that this simply eclipses. But hey, I won't make your financial decisions for you.
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Joined: 27 May 2006
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Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The versus mode alone is worth the cost of this game. No to mention that the versus mode - and campaign mode - are jump-in, jump-out on the PC with no slowdown whatsoever.

And yeah, the idea of this being about surviving is the best way of looking at it. Keep moving, keep quiet, and work together. Being a hero will get you killed. If you think of it as a horror movie - the person who goes wandering off on their own down blind alleys will be the first to die, and the people who know when to shoot, when to run and when to turn off their flashlights lest they scare a lethalfreaky witch, those people live to fight another day.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now I'm going to mistake this thread for that other monolith, fucking great.
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dmauro
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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Location: Brooklyn

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
3. This game seems to be all about the shooting and I find the shooting to be the least interesting aspect of FPS games.

That's because you haven't played versus. The game is actually about stopping those motherfucking survivors from getting to the safe room in one piece by killing stragglers, vomiting on as many of them as possible, and striking when the moment is ripe.

Anyways, four players going online at once would be nice, but this game is about playing with people online. If you aren't interested in playing games online, then don't bother, but if you have ever enjoyed a game online, and you have some online friends to play this with, this will probably be your favorite game.
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Shapermc
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Joined: 14 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wes only played the demo _once_ and drew all his conclusions from that.

If you'd played the game more than once you'd realize that your point 3) is not really all that correct (and I tried to tell you this before). The most interesting aspect of the game is that the AI is not for each enemy, but from a directors point of view so each playthrough is completely unique. Add in VS mode (which is also completely unique each time) you no longer have AI controlled enemies either.

[Also, there is a single player mode]

It's a really fantastic game.

Aside: Slow vs. Fast Zombies:

I think that the game works because they're not "zombies," they're infected much like in 28 Days Later (the film) so they're not quite undead yet.

Did anyone else notice that there's an homage achievement to Dead Rising?
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