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many more stories are yet to be written (knytt stories)
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daphaknee
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

harveyjames you're sucha fanboy sometimes
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are you talking about, I'm like the only person in this thread willing to offer criticism
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Intentionally Wrong
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harveyjames wrote:
What are you talking about, I'm like the only person in this thread willing to offer criticism


I was about to object, but looking back at what I'd written originally, I guess it does come across one-sided. Mostly because I tried to avoid talking about the tricks, which is difficult since the tricks are like 2/3 of the point.

The tricks were clever, yes, but they were incredibly distracting. The first doorway (when you enter the lighthouse for the first time) particularly so: you're walking through enormous shadow when suddenly you're in a new location. It feels less like passing through a door and more like you've been teleported. I wasn't expecting it, and there's no way to go back, so I promptly restarted. I hadn't really LOOKED at more than half that screen before was moved away from it; I wanted a better look.

So while I really admire the cleverness with which dessgeega used the limited suite of tools available, the results feel pretty artificial. It was a fun climb, though.
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harvey, I honestly don't see what your problem is.
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the first three levels Dessgeega made feature some characters trying to overcome some sort of unpleasant circumstance, whether it's trying to negotiate a harsh, barren landscape to recover a lost umbrella and get home, escape a dungeon, or get through a series of dark, dangerous tunnels while sheltering from a storm. And they all end in some kind of release of pressure- jumping into the open field with the wind behind you after the oubliette, or bounding over the clifftops with your umbrella, or coming out into the bright sunshine after the rain and dark, perilous tunnels.

This one, despite the pretext that your task is important to ship captains, is basically just a woman climbing to the top of her house.
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so it wasn't neat enough for you?
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What part of this is difficult for you :(
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I thought that was your point, and my counter-argument remainsl the same.
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[23:16] JamesHarveyS: hey dess why are you letting those numbskulls talk for you in the knytt stories thread
[23:17] JamesHarveyS: I have no idea what they are going on about
[23:17] JamesHarveyS: I keep trying to ask you questions about your level and every time I do they wade in with some jibber-jabber
[23:19] JamesHarveyS: did I scare you off by talking about my cock
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

numbskulls

Harvey, not everything needs to be about saving the dog, or walking the world.
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

helicopterp wrote:
so it wasn't neat enough for you?


I mean what I said, harvey. Neat like tidy, not neat like neat-o. It sounds like you want her game to be Anthem, which is a bad novel by Ayn Rand. In Anthem, the protagonists live in a world where people say "we" and "us" instead of "I" and "me." And it's all in a first person perspective. At the end of the book, sentences have the word "I"--it's all a very neat way to wrap things up.

That godawful novel is an exaggeration of it, but building something on a binary of repression-and-release just won't do all the time. Sometimes "I Want to Tell You" can exist without "Got to Get You Into my Life" and "Tomorrow Never Knows."
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, fair do's

I will take your Beatles analogy but not the Ayn Rand analogy. I don't want it to be like a bad Ayn Rand novel, I just wanted it to be like her other levels. I'M SORRY I CALLED YOU NUMBSKULLS ; _ ;
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i really like how durik's levels build a consistent ongoing vocabulary of game elements, though you really do need to start at the beginning three square and go from there.
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

O Dess, I liked your Lighthouse level a lot more when I realised there was a secret ending, and that you as a player had choices and discoveries to make. That elevated it considerably.

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Max Cola
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harveyjames wrote:
O Dess, I liked your Lighthouse level a lot more when I realised there as a secret ending, and the you as a player had choices and dicoveries to make. That elevated it considerably.


there is? you do? whoa.

hey, on this guy's favorite's list: http://nifflas.ni2.se/forum/index.php?topic=4718.0

Sohe and the Rrokked, Harvest and CRYB. play them. good stuff. the first has some nice custom music and graphics and a Samorost-like feel. the second has a cute little ongoing story, though I think it's a bit too hard given its intentions. the third is a very clever challenge.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

harvest really impressed me. it's the first time i've seen effective characterization through dialogue. i actually came to care about the characters.

and then the game gave me the umbrella, and told me something was different about the cave. and if the game expects me to make the jump i think it does, then fuck the game because that jump is impossible. so very let down.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, it does. I probably should have stressed how fucking hard Harvest is, and how often unfairly so. I really wish it WAS easier, because the story is worth playing for; the difficulty clashes with the intended goals.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

green lines is broken in so many ways (i couldn't even reach the ending, if there is one), but is nonetheless strangely compelling.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

marine starts off kindof on the wrong foot (the starting screens are a little unclear, but neat in their own way), but goes interesting places. those being the labrynthine guts of a stranded submarine. there's a really nice use of space here; the world is genuinely huge and different areas feel distinct despite them all being drawn from the same (gorgeous) tileset.

the forever-rain is a bit rougher. the setting is moody and nice, the actual design not as nice. there is one screen that is absolutely broken and ruins everything the game has built up. it might be worth opening the story and playing through some of the rainy city areas, but it's probably not worth banging your head against that one screen.

oh, and the knytt story i was working on that i stopped working on. i started working on it again.
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assume you're talking about that wrap-around screen. That sucked, yeah. I gave up!

I'd been enjoying it ok up to then, but I really got the sense that it stopped really being fun as soon as it got challenging.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i thought the wrap-around screen was clever. actually, i think there are two of them, and the second one is great.

no, the screen i'm referring to is very late in the game and seriously makes me question whether the author actually played the level.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here's some exciting news: someone's working on a terrible ds port of knytt stories. the port itself looks technically competant (you can see it somewhere in between the author's comment bubbles), but all of the stories are built around knytt's very particular window shape and i can't imagine any of the stories i like working well at all with such a limited portion of the game window visible.
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Harveyjames
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the wrap-around screen was until I decided it must be the broken portion of the game you were referring to!
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

who?! a new knytt story!



(direct download link.)
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

let's talk about some more knytt stories i've been playing lately.

the puzzle room is neat, but i havn't managed to figure out the password that will let me finish it.

cuthbert's mansion is one of those files that's huge because it has stupid amounts of included music, but it has this oddly nice sense of place. it's a rummage through a big mansion, and there are secret passages where you'd expect them. also used enemies and traps in a way that did not infuriate me, which is rare.

on that note, monolith impressed me by being challenging without being obnoxious. it's also big without being unfocused, though there's not a lot of cohesion throughout the game. it has plenty of rough spots, increasingly towards the end. i might have finished it? there might not be an ending? i'm not sure.

but to continue this theme, above and below the waterfall is a story about jumping and climbing that offers two difficulty levels: HARD and VERY HARD. it is EXCELLENT. unlike most knytt stories which are hard by accident, waterfall makes no pretense of being anything other than a challenge; there's a save point after every screen and the game is very straightforward and inventive. it's also very pretty; there's a lot of incidental architecture in places the player doesn't travel, which suggests keen design. i played through on HARD and never felt it to be unfair, though i couldn't figure out the laser maze and had to solve it by trial and error.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, I made Monolith!

Glad you sort of liked it.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey yourself!

is there an ending? i jumped into the you know what at the top of the monolith and ran right off the screen and hit a void. i thought this might have been intentional, but i clipped through the wall of a previous screen and got killed. and i didn't have the energy to do the locks and lasers room again!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and while i'm posting in this thread:

the lava caves is kind of pedestrian, but does a good job of exploring all the game's power-ups, and does so without being unfair.

a walk to the market is classy as hell and has some very clever bits. it also has a maze that is not fooling around. reminds me of myst, but the good stuff.

and monochromatica grotta, fuck yes. has a breakneck pace that is super rare in knytt stories levels. totally hard but it always feels as though you can pick up and try again, mostly because of the fast pace.

it used to be that i could only tolerate those stories that were low on challenge because so few authors could leverage challenge fairly. i'm really glad that's changing.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AND WHILE WE'RE AT IT.

Harveyjames wrote:
What bugs me is when Knytt Stories level designers are inconsistant with which NPCs can talk and which can't. Like why does this little dude have something to say and this one doesn't? . Nifflas is especially guilty of this. It's really cold when you find a weird little character in the middle of some underground cavern and it straight-up just ignores you. I WANT TO TALK TO THE LITTLE MAN, GOD.


you know, james, i've been doing some thinking about this statement over the course of the past few months. and i think that the problem with giving these little men voices - with making them characters - is that you have no set of verbs with which to interact with them. you have the down key, which authors use as a general-purpose "activate" or "continue" action, but there's no way to really reciprocate any kind of exchange with any of these little guys. i think that when the little men speak it invites a deeper interaction which the knytt stories mechanics cannot allow, which creates a kind of dissonance that can often be colder than a silent background character. so i understand why nifflas often chooses to have these little men be just that.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That seems about right!

I played Fossil--this is pretty great! But I think my appreciation for it was dulled somewhat by my forgetting that you have to stand on that kind of button for a couple seconds, so I wound up running through The Loop about four times more than necessary.

That, and I got fed up with trying to jump into the secret area, so. I cheated.

Still a cool level. I like this second-best of all the stories you've done.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that's true. On the other hand, non-interactable talkng NPCs are pretty much par for the course in most Japanese games ('dodongo dislikes smoke' ) and once it's been established that these guys only have one line of dialogue and can't be interacted with, the player just accepts it.

Nifflas's NPCs even look a little like the main character, in that they're humanoid and similarly sized. They often have friendly faces, too. Their design seems to tell the player that they can be communicated with, so it's jarring when they don't.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Intentionally Wrong wrote:
I like this second-best of all the stories you've done.


you say that about all my stories.

today it is raining and i have been sitting with my inner door (but not my outer door) open and playing knytt stories.

the night stories are actually two levels that have been combined into one (i like the first one better, a little bit). they're entirely in silhuoette. the first time i played them i found the game frustrating because the indoor areas were so dark i couldn't see the enemies. i appreciate that the author fixed this.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
Intentionally Wrong wrote:
I like this second-best of all the stories you've done.


you say that about all my stories.


It might seem that way! (The order of preference today: Under The Crack followed by Fossil, and then the Oubliette and the Lighthouse keep switching spots, while Torchlight's just behind them.)
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dess told me the actual intended meaning of the story of fossil the other day. It was interesting, and quite removed from how I'd been reading it. I'd like to hear other people's interpretations of it.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My interpretation is below. Since I'm assuming [spoiler] tags don't work, I'm just going to use ROT-13 to encode it.


Code:
Gur zvar, gur pbzcyrk, naq gur fgnghrf fhttrfg n inavfurq pvivyvmngvba.  Whav vf gur bayl navzngr yvsr va guvf ivfvba bs gur jbeyq, naq gur nccrnenapr bs ure qjryyvat vf sne erzbirq sebz gur fglyr bs gur bgure fgehpgherf; fur yvirf va fvzcyvpvgl, fheivivat va gur funqbj bs gur tvnag sybjref naq hovdhvgbhf fgnghrf.

Jura gur oevqtr oernxf, vg'f n pevfvf ure fvzcyr jnl bs yvsr pnaabg birepbzr.  Gur bayl jnl bhg bs gur fhogreenarna ehva vf gb ragre gur pbzcyrk naq ergevrir gur sbetbggra grpuabybtl bs "whzcvat".  Vg vfa'g yvgrenyyl gur novyvgl gb whzc fb zhpu nf gur vqrn bs uvqqra cbjre, gur znfgrel bs gur jbeyq gung pbzrf jvgu haqrefgnaqvat vgf shaqnzragny sbeprf.

Whav pbyyrpgf gur rzoyrz, nffregvat pbageby bire ure bja yvsr naq qrfgval, naq ol rkgrafvba, gur jbeyq vgfrys.  Juvyr yvgrenyyl pbagebyyvat gur erfbheprf bs gur jbeyq vf gb qral gubfr erfbheprf gb gur bguref jub jbhyq hfr gurz, vg'f nyfb n svthengvir qvzvafuzrag bs gur sbeprf juvpu pbageby hf.  Jura Whav'f fvzcyr yvsr eryvrq hggreyl ba gur fhfgranapr bs gur sybjref, gurl gbjrerq bire ure; abj gung fur unf gur cbjre gb pubbfr gb frrx bhg nygreangr fhfgranapr, gurl ner vafvtavsvpnag.

Fvzvyneyl: orsber gur napvragf' xabjyrqtr jnf npdhverq, gurve jbexf jrer zlfgrevbhf naq vzcbffvoyr gb pbzceruraq--ohg gur zbzrag gurve grpuavdhrf ner znfgrerq, gurve jbexf ner genafcnerag naq znqr cynva.


That's my take, anyhow.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Intentionally Wrong wrote:
[spoiler] tags


color = white
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm trying to organize another collaborative Knytt Stories level over on Select Button. Sign up today!
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[qoute]This one, despite the pretext that your task is important to ship captains, is basically just a woman climbin to the top of her house.[/quote]

It's all about the atmosphere and the emotions it evokes, harvey. It's a mood piece! That's what I loved about it. Plus I love lighthouses.

Quote:
Dess told me the actual intended meaning of the story of fossil the other day. It was interesting, and quite removed from how I'd been reading it. I'd like to hear other people's interpretations of it.


I saw it as something like if the bridge didn't break, the character would carry on their usual journey back to their home in the wasteland, but instead the ACCIDENT caused them to FACE A SUDDEN CHALLENGE and it allowed them to BECOME STRONGER and find greener pastures or something like that, I had it worded much better in my head earlier when I first played it.

I've been playing lots of KNYTT STORIES on my laptop. All of Dess' ones are pretty great, the PoP inspired one being my least favourite. I just played the NIGHT one which I loved. Great atmosphere and and just lots of fun. I liked jumping between the shadows of trees.

Is there a decent tutorial for the editor anywhere? It seems needlessly cumbersome.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cycle wrote:
Is there a decent tutorial for the editor anywhere? It seems needlessly cumbersome.


This is a PDF. It's pretty useful.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That tutorial is a huge help!

So hey, what are the "must play' stories?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cycle wrote:
So hey, what are the "must play' stories?


From Saltwater Breach. It's finished as of today. With areas by LegatoB, Herr Toups, dessgeega, OGC, Boojiboy7, Zaratustra, SuperWes, Skelethulu, The New Ska, and myself.
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