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The Gamer's Quarter
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Wall of Beef
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Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 66
Location: Slightly south of the Great White North.
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 Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Just to throw it in the ring:
EGMs top 20 (of their top 200 from 2006)
1. Super Mario Bros.
2. Pac-man
3. Street Fighter 2
4. Tetris
5. The Legend of Zelda
6. Super MArio 64
7. Space Invaders
8. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
9. Grand Theft Auto 3
10. Pong
11. Metroid
12. Metal Gear Solid
13. Adventure
14. Super Mario Bros.3
15.Donkey Kong
16. Golden Eye
17. Halo: Cobat Envolved
18. Pitfall
19. Super Mario Kart
20. Virtua Fighter
Granted this is not a fan vote list, and it also weighs much more so on the most "important" games, rather than favorite games. |
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SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Access wrote: | And I do enjoy any opportunity to say how crap American developers are (with a few exceptions that prove the rule) while simultaneously talking up Japanese or European ones.  So I flung to the defense of Japanese gaming tastes. |
I think the reality is that the grass is always greener. America's got Valve, Bungie, Blizzard, Epic, Id, Naughty Dog, and Bioware, Europe's got Rockstar and a bunch of other shit I for some reason can't recall right now, Japan's got Square-Enix, Capcom, Konami, and Nintendo. Every country has their great developers/publishers just like every country has their shit ones. It's easy to just think of EA and Activision and say America's shit, but doing so ignores the thrice yearly "Dynasty Warriors" and "Tales of" games that make up almost the exact same equivalent in Japan. In the end, being ethnocentric is probably going to boil down to you believing your tastes reign supreme. That's fine and all, but you can't expect to win an objective argument using your subjective tastes as evidence.
As for the list of EGM's top 20 games, I'm not sure it's relevant since reader polling would result in completely different results without question. Famitsu DID publish their own top 100 list recently, but I think it might have been based on sales. If we can find one based on the Editorial staff's opinion we might have a pretty neat thread going on.
-Wes
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Cycle
Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 2767
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 am Post subject: |
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Access I'm also Australian (there are quite a few Australians here) and I find your attitude towards American games pretty offensive. That kind of crap just hurts the industry and makes me feel like I shouldn't bother listening to you if you have such a closed mind. I don't mean to offend you here, but seriously!
Our TOP 100 this year was reader voted, we handled it like the Triple JJJ hottest 100. I'll post the top ten 20 here, remember it's a PC magazine so no console games:
20. Call of Duty
19. Baldur's Gate II
18. Knights of the Old Republic
17. Battlefield 1942
16: Half-Life 2: Episode One
15: Diablo II
14: Civilization IV
13: Portal
12: Half-Life 2: Episode Two
11. Starcraft
10. World of Warcraft
9. Team Fortress
8. Battlefield 2
7. Bioshock
6. Half-Life
5. Oblivion
4. Crysis
3. Deus Ex
2. Call of Duty 4
1. Half-Life 2
So I'm pretty happy with the top three, the rest of it, well, I'm not so hot about. I think the earlier half of the list is much more interesting, fewer blockbusters and much more culty games with dedicated followings, which I'm usually a part of.
The top three would probably be the same if we did the top 100 ourselves this year. The rest of the top 20 would be radically different, I rekon. For one thing, Marathon would be in there, oh ho!
Actually I think we're doing our own Top 100 later in the year, I can't remember... in one of the holiday issues, no doubt.
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sediment
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Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 428
Location: SUPERPOWER GEORGIALAND
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:51 am Post subject: |
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Hey Cycle can you sneak System Shock 2 in there somewhere, or if you can't can you talk someone else into doing so? 
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Cycle
Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 2767
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:53 am Post subject: |
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Sorry Sed, I hate System Shock 2!
HOWEVER, the rest of the team loves it and I'm pretty sure it's always been in the top 20 when we handle the list personally.
It was number 33 in this list.
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Harveyjames
the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 3636
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| How about the Leisure Suit Larry or Space Quest games? |
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Cycle
Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 2767
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:12 am Post subject: |
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Grim Fandango is in there somewhere.
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Access
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Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| Cycle wrote: | | Access I'm also Australian (there are quite a few Australians here) and I find your attitude towards American games pretty offensive. That kind of crap just hurts the industry and makes me feel like I shouldn't bother listening to you if you have such a closed mind. I don't mean to offend you here, but seriously! |
haha, I dont think me speaking hurts the industry.
Well look at the examples.. Bungie makes unoriginal violent games with guns and aliens, epic makes unoriginal violent games with guns and aliens, ID makes unoriginal violent games with guns and aliens (okay demons but they are on mars). Valve make unoriginal violent games with guns and aliens.
...*yawn*
Portals is fantastic though, but I guess that was an Indy team which Valve bought and tried to foster.
Blizzard now that Bill Roper has left im still not convinced can produce anything good anymore, either way they definetly play it safe, although Warcraft III had some of the best story telling I had seen in an RTS (more so the expansion though) which was quite unusual considering how RTS is not very suited for narratives.
Between Black Isle Studios and BioWare, Black Isle was the real gem, but of course America doesnt like having a good company.. LucasArts Adventure Games, Black Isle Studio, Troika etc It must be against the law for these to operate... I do have a lot of respect for BioWare, I adored KoToR, it reminded me so much of a JRPG more so then a non linear western style RPG.
Naughty Dog is exceptional though and does well in all regions.
American developers needs some originality! Im still yet to see anything like Rez, Shadow of the Colossus, Katamari Damacy, Killer 7, Okami, Viva Pinata, Elebits, Fahrenheit, Shenmue etc etc etc
It Annoys me because even when they get something trully original like the Sims they ruin it very quickly with a stupid amount of products - that I think is bad for the industry, not me raising my complaints about it.
Fortunatly as I keep saying, good original content is booming from US independents. flOw, Gish, Cloud, Everyday Shooter, Aquaria etc etc
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Cycle
Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 2767
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| Access wrote: |
Well look at the examples.. Bungie makes unoriginal violent games with guns and aliens, epic makes unoriginal violent games with guns and aliens, ID makes unoriginal violent games with guns and aliens (okay demons but they are on mars). Valve make unoriginal violent games with guns and aliens.
...*yawn*
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That's some horrible generalisation right there. I don't even know where to start! It seems to me that you can't appreciate what games do if they don't appeal to you (it's pretty obvious most first person shooters don't). I have huge problems with Gears of War, Half-Life 2 and Halo, but I can still appreciate that they did some daring, innovative things with the medium. Sure, America might not have it's own wacky lala game like Katamari Damacy, but there are plenty games that are innovative in their own way. You really do seem to have a closed mind, not to mention glorifing Japan when there is just as much, if not more, sequel and franchise whoring and unoriginal games.
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SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Access wrote: | Well look at the examples.. Bungie makes unoriginal violent games with guns and aliens, epic makes unoriginal violent games with guns and aliens, ID makes unoriginal violent games with guns and aliens (okay demons but they are on mars). Valve make unoriginal violent games with guns and aliens.
American developers needs some originality! Im still yet to see anything like Rez, Shadow of the Colossus, Katamari Damacy, Killer 7, Okami, Viva Pinata, Elebits, Fahrenheit, Shenmue etc etc etc |
Again, we're getting back to taste. So you don't like games with guns and aliens, that's fine, but if somebody doesn't like games with cartoon characters and moe they're pretty fucked when it comes to 99% of Japan's output. The problem with the US isn't lack of talent or ideas, it's the publishing bigwigs telling them what they need to make. Very few devs have creative freedom and the few that do are making damn fine original games without guns and aliens. Have you heard of Will Wright by chance? The Sims and Spore seem pretty original to me. What about Double Fine? Don't Tim Schaffer's games carry the same weight as Fahrenheit? I'm not saying America is better, but all in all every region seems to have a few shining stars of talent with gobs and gobs of talentless hacks making the rest of the games.
-Wes
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kirkjerk
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1227
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: |
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I'm a little out of practice in tracking what games come from what country.
It would be interesting, though maybe not in a good way, to see a big line up of best games by country, kind of a "World Baseball Classic" for video games. (heh. the logo for that as seen on the [ur=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Baseball_Classic]Wikipedia Page[/url] is kind of a rounded swastika.)
I think I'm done with this kind of compilation, and it totally ignores the international aspect, but http://kisrael.com/vgames/powerlist/ is a view of the "best games ever" as determined by EGM in 1997 and 2002, Game Informer in 2001, and then IGN in 2003 and 2005.
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Access
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Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| SuperWes wrote: |
Again, we're getting back to taste. So you don't like games with guns and aliens, that's fine, but if somebody doesn't like games with cartoon characters and moe they're pretty fucked when it comes to 99% of Japan's output. The problem with the US isn't lack of talent or ideas, it's the publishing bigwigs telling them what they need to make. |
Oh I know its not lack of talent. Its a combination of a lot of things, some random assertions could be;
- Very few American games these days have Directors or "Creative Director" or "Creative Producer" or whatever label you want to use yet. Its getting better.
- American company's in all industry's tend to have low expectations of its market and think they are dumber then they really are. Not just publishers either.
- Still an emphasis on technology driven products rather than creative driven products. Sure American games look more realistic then anything the rest of the world makes, but artistic merit is low.
I'm sure Jonathan Blow or some other American indy developer can give you a much more complete list.
In any case im not *for* cartoon graphics. Im for stylisation or abstraction of reality, why mimic reality, we see it everyday - its easy, boring and done to death.
Very little animation tries to portray reality correctly, so I'm unsure why American video game animators are obsessed with it. Of course I'm not saying we shouldn't have *any* realistic games, its just realism is one of an infinite way to portray a universe and very little experimentation in this sector goes on in the United States.
Because of uncanny valley and a range of other issues like trying to convey subtle human performance into something we understand is impossible at this stage. Its easier to relate to an abstraction, even something like Prince of Persia Sands of Time doesn't try to be real, but is a characture of reality. More german expressionism, more noir more different styles is desperately needed.
Frank Miller used to say he got into comics to make them more cinematic, but stays in them to try and make them less. In a similar tone, I think a lot of American developers get into video games to make them more realistic, but I think they should stay in the industry to make them more Unreal (irony).
| SuperWes wrote: |
Have you heard of Will Wright by chance? The Sims and Spore seem pretty original to me. What about Double Fine? Don't Tim Schaffer's games carry the same weight as Fahrenheit? I'm not saying America is better, but all in all every region seems to have a few shining stars of talent with gobs and gobs of talentless hacks making the rest of the games. |
Psychonaughts is another good example of a brilliant game no one bought (Double Fine was best new start up from the GDCA if I recall). It did indeed make a profit when ported to the PlayStation 2, but it was scary days there for quite a while. Im hoping Double Fine isn't another decent American company that cant quite find its market. I am looking forward to Brutal Fury.
I mentioned Will Wright (or at least the Sims) in the prior post.
Both exceptions. Im not saying all American games lack the originality and creativity im after, im just saying they are less likely to then anywhere else - by an unresonable margin too.
| Cycle wrote: | | It seems to me that you can't appreciate what games do if they don't appeal to you (it's pretty obvious most first person shooters don't). I have huge problems with Gears of War, Half-Life 2 and Halo, but I can still appreciate that they did some daring, innovative things with the medium. |
I assess them in general on providing me with an experience I have never had before. Or take me through a genuine emotion(s) looking at the world filtered by a director.
| Cycle wrote: | | You really do seem to have a closed mind, not to mention glorifing Japan when there is just as much, if not more, sequel and franchise whoring and unoriginal games. |
I completely concede that JRPG's are often plagued with game mechanics that only involve incremental genre innovation much like Halo - Halo 3 does within the FPS space. That said, the narratives in many JRPG's allow audiences to walk away feeling like they have seen the world through a directors eyes and in the best examples can possible make the audiences better people as a result.
Aristotle argued there was only 16 narrative templates possible, and its quite clear all JRPG follow the Hero's quest archetype - but even the popular ones like the loosely associated but standalone Final Fantasy games explore issues far more sensitive and complex then almost all the FPS's ive played.
A good piece of art should make you walk away like you know the director a little bit better.
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kirkjerk
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Access, you make a very good case, but I think there IS something to be said for the immersive properties of realistic games.
I can't deny that the abstraction probably is a better tool for pursuing the emotional response factor, especially given the industry's place in the uncanny valley, but... I dunno, take GTA 4 ("Please!") ... the same game in a cartoony wonderland just wouldn't click. Some games work well with this kind of alternate-reality factor, where a car hurling off an overpass and crumbling and bend "realistically" (using a cinema-blockbuster-derived value of "realism") provokes a visceral kind of reaction that a giant "ACME LAB 1000 LB WEIGHT" anvil falling from the sky doesn't.
GTA 4 walks, well, not a knife-edge, but has to work to maintain a balance with a city where chaos and mayhem are possible, while still bearing enough similarities to our own that we can identify with it. (Sort of like alternate histories that posit "what if men carried babies" - the point of digression would have been so far reaching and so far back that it would be one HELL of a butter fly effect making human culture something totally different.)
I do admit it would be better if more American developers demonstrated that they grasped a greater variety of visual expressions.
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SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Psychonaughts is another good example of a brilliant game no one bought |
Is this an example along with these?
| Access wrote: | | Rez, Shadow of the Colossus, Katamari Damacy, Killer 7, Okami, Viva Pinata, Elebits, Fahrenheit, Shenmue etc etc etc |
Because if so, the one common thread tying all of the so-called worthwhile games is that they didn't sell very well or wouldn't have sold well if it weren't for being budget games and/or launch games. Is it a wonder that games are starting to be driven toward realism when the alternative just doesn't sell very well?
Do me a favor and turn on your TV. Flip through a few channels. What do you see? You probably see a lot of live-action shows and maybe a few cartoons for kids. We're at a point where the "live-action" game is becoming the norm. That doesn't mean there can't be creativity infused into that. Plenty of shows have distinct looks to them depite being live action, but the reality is that shows are filmed in live-action rather than being animated not because it's cheaper, but because it's what people want.
Now the easy response here is that sales don't equate to quality and that plenty of shitty games sell boatloads. This is true, but it's no more true in America than it is in Japan or Europe and a lot of games that sell well and look realistic have extemely artistic minds and ideas behind them. I think dismissing something outright because it looks real or is based on a realistic premise is just as shortsighted as people who dismiss things because they are animated.
| Quote: | | Both exceptions. Im not saying all American games lack the originality and creativity im after, im just saying they are less likely to then anywhere else - by an unresonable margin too. |
You're right that they're both exceptions, but what you're missing is that all of the decent developers in Japan and Europe are exceptions as well. Everyone sucks. A few people of various ethnicities are pretty good. There's no blanket statement based on race that can be made here.
| Quote: | | A good piece of art should make you walk away like you know the director a little bit better. |
If this is true, the only game series that even approaches being art is Metal Gear.
In 99% of the cases, JRPGs don't feel like a creator's vision, they feel like a cartoon that's had interaction forcefully wedged in by someone. Sure, that cartoon might make you think about deeper things, but its doing so without any ties to the medium it's being presented in. FPS's often feel like a shooting gallery, but the games we've been discussing (Bioshock, Half-Life, Call of Duty 4, Mass Effect) take the genre template and conciously think about interaction and storytelling, making games that actually tie the stories and emotions felt while playing to the medium they're being told in. This is significantly more important than what art style is used and whether or not the game feels like one director's vision (but I would argue that they do and that any arguments to the contrary would come from purely an aesthetic angle).
-Wes
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Access
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Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| kirkjerk wrote: | Access, you make a very good case, but I think there IS something to be said for the immersive properties of realistic games.
I can't deny that the abstraction probably is a better tool for pursuing the emotional response factor, especially given the industry's place in the uncanny valley, but... I dunno, take GTA 4 ("Please!") ... the same game in a cartoony wonderland just wouldn't click. Some games work well with this kind of alternate-reality factor, where a car hurling off an overpass and crumbling and bend "realistically" (using a cinema-blockbuster-derived value of "realism") provokes a visceral kind of reaction that a giant "ACME LAB 1000 LB WEIGHT" anvil falling from the sky doesn't. |
Well Grand Theft Auto is from the UK.
But I think its a farce to say the alternative to realism is Looney Toon.
Take something like the Longest Journey 2: Dreamfall. They clearly didnt want to go for a realistic look, but they went somewhere close.
I think there is a lot of room for exploration in between Looney Toons and Realism.
Max Payne is a western example of a game exploring itself visually.
Although no one in there right mind would argue that its not sending a confusing message with its art style. But at least they tried, and its worth playing just for that fact alone. While I loath live action pasted into games *glares at early Mortal Kombat and Rise of the Triad*, but Max Payne did it so silly and interesting thats its noteworthy.
If modern games would stop looking brown it would be a nice start. Im looking at you i.d.
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kirkjerk
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, yeah, I'm not sure of the current pedigree of GTA 4 in terms of this discussion, since there's such a buttload of localization.
(Come to think of it, it must be UK -- I'm pretty sure I saw an errant "whilst" show up in one of the onscreen instructional hint bits)
Hmm, a little wikipediaing shows this is by a Scottish company, but would "Crackdown" be an example of a stylized look you're talking about?
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Access
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Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry was working on my last post before you posted:
| SuperWes wrote: | | Because if so, the one common thread tying all of the so-called worthwhile games is that they didn't sell very well |
On the contrary they sold well just not millions of units well - but they dont have to for as you correctly identify, costs were low, (Katamari Damacy, Shadow of the Colossus sold extremely well though). But the important difference is these games are being made by the Capcom's, the Sega's, the Sonys - the EA's of Japan. Not by pokey start ups like Double Fine.
| SuperWes wrote: | | You're right that they're both exceptions, but what you're missing is that all of the decent developers in Japan and Europe are exceptions as well. Everyone sucks. A few people of various ethnicities are pretty good. There's no blanket statement based on race that can be made here. |
And here is where we disagree. Its not a racial issue, I think its a cultural issue. I think Americans tend to make games that appeal to that very core insulated hard core gamer market (which certainly isnt me), and I think games made outside tend to have a wider appeal, which tend to include me, my partner, my friends and every day people more.
| SuperWes wrote: |
If this is true, the only game series that even approaches being art is Metal Gear. |
I take issue with that, I think there are quite a number of games that do, some more then others. But I know what you mean, and I do agree. I often say that its depressing that Metal Gear Solid is our Shakespearean great works our medium has created - and look forward to a day where Metal Gear Solid's quality is considered bottom rung in quality. I agree with your summation that pretty much all games are poor, but as we know this is a difficult medium, and is still trying to find its soul.
I enjoy the industry moving closer and closer to something I am really proud of. As im sure we all do, I believe this medium is the most effective for conveying many emotions, and it hurts me to see it constantly under used.
| SuperWes wrote: | | In 99% of the cases, JRPGs don't feel like a creator's vision, they feel like a cartoon that's had interaction forcefully wedged in by someone. Sure, that cartoon might make you think about deeper things, but its doing so without any ties to the medium it's being presented in. |
That stems from trying to unite narratology and ludology, a common problem in Narrative focused games. The same issue props up in Point and Click adventure games, text adventure games, interactive novels etc. Hell even Metal Gear Solid your premium example is filled with regular 20 minute uncontrollable dialogue. Lets not kid ourselves that its a JRPG specific issue.
| SuperWes wrote: | | (Bioshock, Half-Life, Call of Duty 4) take the genre template and conciously think about interaction and storytelling, making games that actually tie the stories and emotions felt while playing to the medium they're being told in. |
The problem with the first person perspective is its a poor method to convey emotion in a sophisticated narrative, for the same reason film director's don't direct films from a protagonists point of view.
While obviously it would be ideal to unify both ludology and narratology and obey the "showing not telling" rules of writing - which Valve especially have been doing well. Lets ignore for a moment these games don't tend to deal with broader issues (BioShock does but I argue very superficially). I cant help but feel they are designing there way into a murky brown, shooting gallery wall where you silently stalk the conversations of those around you. Im not convinced thats better.
I'm undecided on this issue to be honest. I look at something like Drakes Fortune, Fahrenheit and Metal Gear Solid and can see an argument that there isnt an issue at all, and through better writing the situation will improve. And that static cinematics (or subtle interactive cinematics ala Metal Gear Solid 3) in between various play mechanics that heighten different emotions, some will heighten fear, anger, excitement, frustration, eroticism etc etc is the perfect way to eclipse story telling in other mediums. Who knows, perhaps one day narrative based video games wont have a "core" game play mechanic and will just be a loose collection of various game play mechanics, like a sophiticated version of Wario Ware that tells a story - maybe thats the way forward.
I can also see a Ludologists point who argue video games isnt the next Cinema but the next Sport - since competition, sense of tension, fear all come natural to the medium and nothing else does. And the best of video games will never rival the best of Cinema.
I can also see David Jaffe's point, (which is the one your expressing). "I want to feel what I see when im watching Phillip Seymore Hoffman while playing a video game mechanic". Im still not convinced this is possible or if so even better. I dont see why the medium has to be completely divorced from static elements just because it happens to be possible to not have static elements.
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Scratchmonkey
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Access wrote: | | The problem with the first person perspective is its a poor method to convey emotion in a sophisticated narrative, for the same reason film director's don't direct films from a protagonists point of view. |
One would then have to question that games are capable of sustaining a "sophisticated" narrative in the sense of conventional exposition. If they're not, then the first-person perspective may yet be ideal for whatever kind of narrative videogames are best at.
To expand on this, the game that I feel has had the most interesting results in terms of player-generated narrative (which, to be clear, I view as the "true" narrative of games, as opposed to exposition*) is Dwarf Fortress.
If we must draw a comparison to existent/conventional narrative art, videogames have just as much in common with Theater as they do with Cinema.
* - i.e. the exposition of Gradius is "there's an alien army and you, the brave pilot, must man your ship and rescue the earth", the narrative is "the ship moved up two units, fired a shot, it moved four units down, firing a shot in the third unit" etc. -- which makes for horrible exposition; however, it can be a very compelling and I would deem sophisticated experience (not so much in the case of Gradius itself; you could make good cases for Silent Hill 2, Ikaruga and Rez though. |
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Cycle
Mac daddy
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I assess them in general on providing me with an experience I have never had before. Or take me through a genuine emotion(s) looking at the world filtered by a director. |
Fine, take a look at Gears of War. Have you played anything that offered the same experience before it came out? No, because its cover system was an innovative feature never seen before. The game also filled me with emotions, excitement, tension, agression, provided me with pure adrediline rushes and a feeling of companisionship when I played with a friend. I consider these more genuine emotions than having some director manipulate my emotions by making me attatched to some character and killing them off. I can get that from any movie or book and I think games can offer much greater things.
| Quote: | | A good piece of art should make you walk away like you know the director a little bit better. |
I disagree. I think a good piece of art should make you walk away knowing yourself a little better.
| Quote: | | If modern games would stop looking brown it would be a nice start. Im looking at you i.d. |
Brown went out of style a long time ago. Quake 3 was hell colourful and DooM 3, though dark as hell, rarely used browns. Also, it's just Id, one word.
And look at Halo, it's extremely colourful. I always loved the art direction of that game. Sure, the human characters are supposed to look realistic, but the Halo itself... it was so beautiful, so flawless, so perfectly formed, it was surreal, like a prefect earth. Then I felt like an asshole when we went down there and stained it with the blood of my enemies.
| Quote: | | And here is where we disagree. Its not a racial issue, I think its a cultural issue. I think Americans tend to make games that appeal to that very core insulated hard core gamer market (which certainly isnt me), and I think games made outside tend to have a wider appeal, which tend to include me, my partner, my friends and every day people more. |
What are you talking about, casual gaming is a bigger thing in America than anywhere else in the world. Even EA has been pumping out casual games. Aside from Nintendo and the Wii, my friends could pick up far more American games easily than Japanese ones, they pump out just as many hardcore, niche games.
| Quote: | | The problem with the first person perspective is its a poor method to convey emotion in a sophisticated narrative, for the same reason film director's don't direct films from a protagonists point of view. |
This is where I have a problem with you. You're constantly compaing games to films, and being like movies is the last thing I want them to be. I don't want games to convey emotions to me, I want games to make me feel my own emotions. Half-Life 2 tried to immerse the player in the world and make you feel your own emotions, trying very hard not to spell anything out. Sure, it may not have succedded as well as it could, but I far prefer it to something like a JRPG which tells me what my character is feeling, what every other character is feeling and what I SHOULD be feeling, using manipulative tricks like soppy music and dailouge. This is cheap and lazy in games and should stay in movies. While American narrative games have been struggling to refine itself, I think they're doing much more for the medium than interactive movies like Metal Gear Solid and what not.
EDIT: Also what Scratchmonkey said.
Oh, and all those Japanese games you mentioned earlier have the advantage of being popular in all territories because of all the Japan love. Do you think Psychonauts sold well, if at all, in Japan? Hell, there's a good chance it wasn't even released there.
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Access
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| Scratchmonkey wrote: | | To expand on this, the game that I feel has had the most interesting results in terms of player-generated narrative (which, to be clear, I view as the "true" narrative of games, as opposed to exposition*) is Dwarf Fortress. |
See this is a curious area. Im skeptical about its power until I see something trully special come from it. I tend to believe its barking up the wrong tree. But its certainly interesting. Will modern story telling be procedurally generated? Will Wright believes a narrative should adjust and adapt to the game player. He often speaks he would love to make a Narrative based game where it would turn into a 100 hour epic or a 10 hour adventure based on how you played, with both being equally fulfilling. Its difficult for me to see the artistic merit in this, but ive been wrong before. Dwarf Fortress is a early rudimentary example of this. Façade was another interesting example of telling a social narrative which you yourself shape.
Its an interesting arena, Kieron Gillen would be very happy, his New Games Journalism would be considered the undisputed technique for reviewing such a beast - and really already should be for any MMORPG. But I'm still not convinced a procedurally generated or even true non linear experience can express an artists view succinctly. Or at least I see no evidence for it. Warren Specter and Ron Gilbert both argue having multiple endings to games are a bad idea because you end up with one "real" artist ending, and then a bunch of really rushed poorly implemented ones. (Or perhaps these days with the dichotomy's of good versus evil games, two "real" endings). Ironically both devs have a history of games with multiple endings, but I guess that just means they came to there oppinion empircally. I wonder what either would say about procedurally generated game set pieces. I can already guess though.
Roger Ebert wrote an interesting essay on why video games interactive nature prevent it from being art. I tend to half agree with him, and can definetly understand it when looking at potentially (although still mythical) true non linear games.
| Scratchmonkey wrote: | | If we must draw a comparison to existent/conventional narrative art, videogames have just as much in common with Theater as they do with Cinema. |
The fact I bring up Cinema instead of Books or theater isn't for any particular reason. Your right, and It's just laziness that I keep using the same example.
| Cycle wrote: | | Fine, take a look at Gears of War. Have you played anything that offered the same experience before it came out? No, because its cover system was an innovative feature never seen before. The game also filled me with emotions, excitement, tension, agression, provided me with pure adrediline rushes and a feeling of companisionship when I played with a friend. I consider these more genuine emotions than having some director manipulate my emotions by making me attatched to some character and killing them off. I can get that from any movie or book and I think games can offer much greater things. |
Well first off, Gears of War didn't introduce any mechanic that wasn't first introduced into kill.switch. But secondly what you describe there is my worst fear, and is what a Ludologist would argue is the future for gaming. "The game also filled me with emotions, excitement, tension, agression, provided me with pure adrediline rushes and a feeling of companisionship when I played with a friend." - Any sport or even a poker game can do this - thats not art, nor is it what I find interesting about our medium - maybe your right, maybe games are the next Baseball and not the next theater *gets depressed*. I understand pure toys and ludological experiences have a large market.
| Cycle wrote: | | I disagree. I think a good piece of art should make you walk away knowing yourself a little better. |
It depends if you see video games as art or entertainment.
Clearly there is no art without an artist. Art is a selfish activity where a person spews fourth a world view and allows someone to get into there head through a piece of work. The art has no responsibility to anyone but the artist. For example, some would argue that "fun" is the greatest achievement a video game should strive for - because of course it is a *game*. But not all books or paintings are "fun", I think an artist can convey certain things while intentionally not making the game fun at times. I even see a case for an artist to make a game intended as an exercise in futility, Takeshi no Chōsenjō is a nice example of that.
The opposing view would be games are a self indulgent activity made on our behalf and fun is the highest order and games should be catered to what we want. And developers have a responsibility to listen to its community and give them something they want. I don't agree with this view.
| Cycle wrote: | | Brown went out of style a long time ago. Quake 3 was hell colourful and DooM 3, though dark as hell, rarely used browns. |
Alot of games today are like playing them through a used coffee filter.
| Cycle wrote: | | IWhat are you talking about, casual gaming is a bigger thing in America than anywhere else in the world. Even EA has been pumping out casual games. Aside from Nintendo and the Wii, my friends could pick up far more American games easily than Japanese ones, they pump out just as many hardcore, niche games. |
Im not talking about casual gaming per sei. Nor am I talking about the game play mechanic specifically. Forget the recent casual market boom, Japan had amazingly high proportions of women playing video games, and it wasn't because the girls were playing the more violent genre games like Street Fighter.
| Cycle wrote: | | This is where I have a problem with you. You're constantly compaing games to films, and being like movies is the last thing I want them to be. I don't want games to convey emotions to me, I want games to make me feel my own emotions. Half-Life 2 tried to immerse the player in the world and make you feel your own emotions, trying very hard not to spell anything out. |
A good painting, book, music or piece of cinema should also do this.
| Cycle wrote: | | Sure, it may not have succedded as well as it could, but I far prefer it to something like a JRPG which tells me what my character is feeling, what every other character is feeling and what I SHOULD be feeling, using manipulative tricks like soppy music and dailouge. This is cheap and lazy in games and should stay in movies |
I think a film director would take issue with you suggesting using music, performance, dialogue, lighting, directing etc is manipulative and soppy. A good narrative based game wont tell you what a character is feeling, it will make you feel it - what we are debating over is how that is achieved and what emotions it can carry.
Also I don't know why we are artificially limiting narratives to be explored through one character in a video game. I don't necessarily see why video games are advantageous to just sticking to looking through the world of one character. I think being "inside" one character is perhaps conducive to game play tension, but I think limited to convey most forms of drama. I can see instances where its a great method, like it can be a very visceral method to convey the loss of a friend for example (whereas the loss of Lord Lothar in Warcraft II you basically have no emotional investment in at all), but I don't necessarily understand the need to maintain that and try to fit all styles of emotions through that same window.
| Cycle wrote: | | Do you think Psychonauts sold well, if at all, in Japan? Hell, there's a good chance it wasn't even released there. |
It would of done well in Japan if marketed right. Crash Bandicoot is a good example of a western game that was a craze in Japan. The problem stems from Psychonaughts was marketed by Zipatoni, a company that later went onto making the AllIwantForXmasIsaPSP disaster. I think with a simple redesign of the lead it could of been a massive hit in Japan of epic proportions.
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Scratchmonkey
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Access wrote: | | See this is a curious area. Im skeptical about its power until I see something trully special come from it. I tend to believe its barking up the wrong tree. But its certainly interesting. Will modern story telling be procedurally generated? Will Wright believes a narrative should adjust and adapt to the game player. He often speaks he would love to make a Narrative based game where it would turn into a 100 hour epic or a 10 hour adventure based on how you played, with both being equally fulfilling. Its difficult for me to see the artistic merit in this, but ive been wrong before. Dwarf Fortress is a early rudimentary example of this. Façade was another interesting example of telling a social narrative which you yourself shape. |
Well, part of it is the question of whether games are really suited for telling conventional stories. I'm more than halfway convinced that they're not. Their strength is in their interactivity. Shadow of the Colossus is not good because it has a good story, it's because it manages to holistically include the story and the narrative in its design.
I think the days of a game capable of procedurally generated plot are a long way away. Rather, I think the advantage of these types of games is creating worlds where user experience can be varied based on their decision-making, allowing the emergent narrative of the gameplay to drive things conceptually. |
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | t would of done well in Japan if marketed right. Crash Bandicoot is a good example of a western game that was a craze in Japan. |
Crap, so he's pretty much their fault?
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Access
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| kirkjerk wrote: | | Crap, so he's pretty much their fault? |
Man, Crash Bandicoot is made by one of Americas most talented developers Naughty Dog who made Uncharted: Drake's Fortune. However at the time Naughty didn't own the IP of Crash, Time Warner did. Eventually Naughty Dog realized they could survive on there own and left to start the Jak and Daxter series. Then Time Warner rented a bunch of monkeys to make future games based on the Crash Bandicoot series, and obviously the franchise has gone no where without talent.
But the campaign in Japan was amazingly successful. They did television ads with Crash Bandicoot and his cast of characters doing this annoying little dance, and it became this huge phenomenon and kids would do it all the time.
By the sequel the ads started to address this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1DhPDs6V98 <= Crash 1 ads
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxQfFz170qU <= Crash 2 Ads
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Access wrote: | | kirkjerk wrote: | | Crap, so he's pretty much their fault? |
Man, Crash Bandicoot is made by one of Americas most talented developers Naughty Dog who made Uncharted: Drake's Fortune. However at the time Naughty didn't own the IP of Crash, Time Warner did. Eventually Naughty Dog realized they could survive on there own and left to start the Jak and Daxter series. Then Time Warner rented a bunch of monkeys to make future games based on the Crash Bandicoot series, and obviously the franchise has gone no where without talent. |
It's weird how Sony tried to use him, then, in the USA -- maybe emboldened by his Japanese success? I remember those "guy in a Crash outfit" ads, and the feeling was "Sony is pretending to use fake awkward embarrassment about not having a solid mascot character to hide its real awkward embarrassment about not having a solid mascot character".
I remember the original game as being colorful but not that great of a game...
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SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Access wrote: | See this is a curious area. Im skeptical about its power until I see something trully special come from it. I tend to believe its barking up the wrong tree. But its certainly interesting. Will modern story telling be procedurally generated? Will Wright believes a narrative should adjust and adapt to the game player. He often speaks he would love to make a Narrative based game where it would turn into a 100 hour epic or a 10 hour adventure based on how you played, with both being equally fulfilling. Its difficult for me to see the artistic merit in this, but ive been wrong before. Dwarf Fortress is a early rudimentary example of this. Façade was another interesting example of telling a social narrative which you yourself shape.
Its an interesting arena, Kieron Gillen would be very happy, his New Games Journalism would be considered the undisputed technique for reviewing such a beast - and really already should be for any MMORPG. But I'm still not convinced a procedurally generated or even true non linear experience can express an artists view succinctly. Or at least I see no evidence for it. Warren Specter and Ron Gilbert both argue having multiple endings to games are a bad idea because you end up with one "real" artist ending, and then a bunch of really rushed poorly implemented ones. (Or perhaps these days with the dichotomy's of good versus evil games, two "real" endings). Ironically both devs have a history of games with multiple endings, but I guess that just means they came to there oppinion empircally. I wonder what either would say about procedurally generated game set pieces. I can already guess though.
Roger Ebert wrote an interesting essay on why video games interactive nature prevent it from being art. I tend to half agree with him, and can definetly understand it when looking at potentially (although still mythical) true non linear games. |
I believe you're misconstruing his assertions here. I don't think he's saying that procedurally generated stories or non-linear storytelling is the answer, I believe he's saying that games already have procedurally generated narratives that are capable of creating more personal and emotional experiences than those delivered through cutscenes. These narratives are the sequences of events and stories that play out through the gameplay. As games evolve and become more freeform, these types of stories will happen more often and be more rewarding.
I haven't tried Dwarf Fortress, but I've read about it a bit and I assume that the narratives he's talking about are the ones that naturally arise out of the player trying to construct order out of the randomly generated mess they're given at the beginning of the game.
Halo 3 is a game where technology naturally leads to more interesting narratives. The physics engine and level design means that the environment will sometimes cause unexpected chains of events that make up little narratives. "I threw a sticky across the map, it got caught in a grav lift and got sent back through, sticking me right in the face!" Even something as small as "I walked across the map" is a narrative, but these narratives are rewarding when they feel like they are unique to your own experience and were only possible because of your presence.
These kinds of feelings can never be truly scripted, but by building games around the player's experience rather than just cool mechanics or neat art styles, the player will be more likely to feel that they're in charge of the narrative.
A good example of how this type of thing can be done in a single player game can be found in Call of Duty 4. There's one level that's populated by a bunch of wild dogs. You can choose to kill them and get through the levels without a problem, or you can try to sneak around them and let them be. During the final part of that level you get swarmed by enemy soldiers. If you choose not to kill a group of dogs in the prevous area they come rushing out to attack the enemy soldiers from behind. This is no doubt the work of a narrator, but due to your role in the narrative, your actions have far more meaningful results than just victory or defeat.
| Access wrote: | | Cycle wrote: | | I disagree. I think a good piece of art should make you walk away knowing yourself a little better. |
It depends if you see video games as art or entertainment. |
That's a bullshit answer. Regardless of what you feel art is and isn't, trying to wedge it into a single category that is author-focused, requiring explicit ignorance of audience is just flat out wrong.
Regardless, can we please leave the word "art" out of this discussion. It really has no place in the discussion of any game that isn't indie. Anything from Rez, to Ico, to SOTC, to Metal Gear Solid, to Half Life 2 lives and dies by its entertainment value. This is NOT in any way limited exclusively to "fun," but for a game to be worthwhile it really needs to keep the player interested for some reason. I don't think anybody cares if games are art, just that they're worth playing. There's plenty of art that I don't give a shit about and if games become art that I don't give a shit about I won't be screaming about its great accomplishment.
| Access wrote: | | Cycle wrote: | | Brown went out of style a long time ago. Quake 3 was hell colourful and DooM 3, though dark as hell, rarely used browns. |
Alot of games today are like playing them through a used coffee filter. |
Ok, now I'm confused. One minute you complain that all games look realistic and the next youre complaining that many of them that depict a dark, gritty, dirty, broken world choose a stylization that uses dark colors? This isn't done because of realism, it's done very unrealistically to create a certain mood and feeling. It's done for emotion. Granted, it's not perfect, but the color depth is improving as technology improves.
Now if you don't like dark, broken, bleak worlds you're certainly justified there. But Gears would have been significantly less effective at creating its mood if it was all blue skies and green pastures.
| Access wrote: | | Im not talking about casual gaming per sei. Nor am I talking about the game play mechanic specifically. Forget the recent casual market boom, Japan had amazingly high proportions of women playing video games, and it wasn't because the girls were playing the more violent genre games like Street Fighter. |
You're right, but this isn't the Playstation era anymore. Girls were getting into games then because innovative casual games were being released regularly on consoles. And it happened primarily in Japan because very few people in Japan play games on their computers.
If you look at America, Japan, and Europe now you'll see that games are more popular with girls now than they ever have been. They're just being played on their cell phones, web pages, and IM clients. Oh yeah, and their DSes, but for the purpose of this discussion we should probably lump these in with casual games.
You said earlier that games from other countries are more inclusive. It's just not true. Non-gamers are as unlikely to play Shadow of the Colossus as they are to play Halo 3. They're likely to play Spider Solitare though!
| Access wrote: | | Also I don't know why we are artificially limiting narratives to be explored through one character in a video game. I don't necessarily see why video games are advantageous to just sticking to looking through the world of one character. I think being "inside" one character is perhaps conducive to game play tension, but I think limited to convey most forms of drama. |
You're right, but nobody here is fighting for the first person perspective at all, they're fighting for games that do interesting things with interactions and the medium. To disregard games that happen to do this using the first person perspective as you've been consistently doing is not only shortsighted and ignorant, but also severely stands in opposition to any arguments you're making.
| Access wrote: | | It would of done well in Japan if marketed right. |
Incorrect. Japan is exremely picky about its color choices and design preferences. Crash Bandicoot didn't just have to be marketed differently, they had to completely redo the character model to fit their tastes. The rest of the world is much more accepting of art with unique looks to it, but Japan has a specific vision of beauty and if art doesn't meet that standard, no matter how well-done it is it will be seen as ugly.
-Wes
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Access
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| kirkjerk wrote: | | It's weird how Sony tried to use him, then, in the USA -- maybe emboldened by his Japanese success? I remember those "guy in a Crash outfit" ads, and the feeling was "Sony is pretending to use fake awkward embarrassment about not having a solid mascot character to hide its real awkward embarrassment about not having a solid mascot character". |
Actually Sony didn't. They had the official policy that Mascots were a very childish last generation thing and there more "sophisticated" brand would sell itself and not depend on any franchise. I personally think it was a wise move.
It didnt prevent video games journalists trying to create a mascot for the system though. If anything Crash became an unofficial mascot. But, he wasnt ever owned by Sony.
| kirkjerk wrote: | | I remember the original game as being colorful but not that great of a game... |
Well... secretly....deep down inside I know its true. Once Mario 64 came out and showed everyone how 3D platformers should be this "sonics butt cam" style were quickly shown the door. For its time though there was nothing else like it. I have a lot of female friends that have extremely fond memories of the title.
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Access
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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===== SIDE POINTS =====
| SuperWes wrote: |
I believe you're misconstruing his assertions here. I don't think he's saying that procedurally generated stories or non-linear storytelling is the answer |
I knew he wasn't saying that, and he did clear that up himself, I just ran off on my own tangent there for a moment.
| SuperWes wrote: | | (brown)This isn't done because of realism, it's done very unrealistically to create a certain mood and feeling. It's done for emotion. |
I don't think I agree with you. I think its definetly done as a deliberate attempt to seem more real by "dirtying it up" a bit. Again, im not opposed to this in principle, im just tired of everyone doing it.
===== WHAT IS ART =====
| SuperWes wrote: | | That's a bullshit answer. Regardless of what you feel art is and isn't, trying to wedge it into a single category that is author-focused, requiring explicit ignorance of audience is just flat out wrong. |
Its not ignorant of audiences. Obviously we interpret what an artist is trying to convey and that in itself makes us reflect internally. We learn about ourselves by looking at the world through another's eyes - ie the Artists.
| SuperWes wrote: | | Regardless, can we please leave the word "art" out of this discussion. It really has no place in the discussion of any game that isn't indie. Anything from Rez, to Ico, to SOTC, to Metal Gear Solid, to Half Life 2 lives and dies by its entertainment value. |
It seems you have a quite draconian definition of art - ie In princple art cannot be motivated by money. If people held that belief Architecture for example would be a type of art that wouldnt exist. I dont share your definition, and tend to see art as a piece of work that expresses an ideology or something along those lines.
I *try* to stay away from labeling what is and isnt art, but I always rope myself into it. Some people I know feel anything creative is art, personally I draw my own line in the sand based on whether I can see an intention behind a piece of work. Something beyond just telling a story, or making people happy or sad. But actually conveying a point of view.
| SuperWes wrote: | | This is NOT in any way limited exclusively to "fun," but for a game to be worthwhile it really needs to keep the player interested for some reason. I don't think anybody cares if games are art, just that they're worth playing. |
Well im not as much interested in fun or light entertainment or escapism. Im interesting in video games as a mode of conveying an artists point of view. An interesting game I keep hearing about, but still question whether it actually exists is a game where your character is stuck on the World Trade Centre on September 11. Everything is on fire and there is a smashed window. You can run around the room and be burnt to death, or you can jump out the window and fall to your death.
For me personally, that conveyed a point of view more efficiently then 300 hours of static news footage ever could. Im not doubting the power or importance of telling a narrative through the game play, it would be a pretty poor game if it didn't. But I think video games can be a collection of different media. I don't think its necessary or desirable to completely exorcise static content if it serves a purpose - at the discretion of the artist.
==== EVERYONE VS AMERICA =====
| SuperWes wrote: | | You're right, but this isn't the Playstation era anymore. Girls were getting into games then because innovative casual games were being released regularly on consoles. And it happened primarily in Japan because very few people in Japan play games on their computers. |
I dont believe that either. I think Japans biggest block busters of the early 90's like Mario World, Pilot Wings, Chrono Trigger etc appeal naturally to women. I would argue they were less hard core focused while still not being casual games (which I personally see as the sweet spot for the medium).
| SuperWes wrote: |
| Access wrote: | | It would of done well in Japan if marketed right. |
Incorrect. Japan is exremely picky about its color choices and design preferences. Crash Bandicoot didn't just have to be marketed differently, they had to completely redo the character model to fit their tastes. |
Well I said that, and I also said that Psychonaughts would of done well if marketed right AND the protagonist had a redesign. I'm not disputing that, but I think its more related to there almost militant xenophobia. I dont deny American markets are more accepting of Japanese games then Japanese markets are accepting of American games (even if we are to assume the quality was the same).
Thats obvious, but is unrelated to my argument that Japanese developers explore a wider variety of art styles - even if those art styles are uniformally identifiable as "Asian" then American developers do. There are a whole heap of Western art movements that American games could explore - but rarely do.
==== GAME PLAY NARRATIVE ====
| SuperWes wrote: | | To disregard games that happen to do this using the first person perspective as you've been consistently doing is not only shortsighted and ignorant, but also severely stands in opposition to any arguments you're making. |
Your right, my personal thoughts on first person perspective is irrelevant to our conversation, I just ran off on another irrelevant tangent.
The reason I harp on about FPS is as you note not as much about the view but is more about me making the case that these games that just happen to be in the first person view tend to be made for a hard core gamer market that doesn't appeal to as wide an audience - including me.
I can see your point that you keep bringing up and never disagreed with the benefits of exploring a narrative through game play (despite my side thoughts that it doesn't have to be the sole way), but I just wish they would choose to explore them in better games that didnt just appeal to core gamers involving killing and shooting.
| SuperWes wrote: | | Non-gamers are as unlikely to play Shadow of the Colossus as they are to play Halo 3. They're likely to play Spider Solitare though! |
But they are more likely to play Mario Galaxy, Nights into Dreams, Katamari Damacy and a million others which I don't think have American counter parts besides a very very elite small number of titles like the Sims. (Ignoring casual games of course)
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Scratchmonkey
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not so sure that Katamari Damacy is a very good example game for this. For one thing, it didn't sell horribly well anywhere -- ~150K in Japan and 120K in the U.S. For another thing, it was very much an anomaly in terms of Japanese videogame development. Takahashi has made it extremely clear that Namco didn't expect much out of him as a producer and that he basically had to ride their ass to release an extremely cheap game that was mostly made by students.
Once it did come out and did reasonably well for what it cost to make, Namco immediately jumped on the "churn-out-sequels-till-the-corpse-runs-dry" bandwagon, even though Takahashi didn't want to make a sequel to it at all, resulting in the hilarious "This is a horrible idea! Wheeee!" snarky attitude of Everybody Loves Katamari (which, along with Prince's name change belongs in the Hall of Fame of Middle Fingers that Nobody Recognizes). |
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Cycle
Mac daddy
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Access I think you have some interesthing things to say, but ultimately your extreme bias and speculation gives me little interest to continue this discussion that's clearly going nowhere and a waste of my time. Cheers!
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dessgeega
loves your favorite videogame
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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now you see why i've been ignoring these threads.
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Access
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Scratchmonkey wrote: | | I'm not so sure that Katamari Damacy is a very good example game for this. For one thing, it didn't sell horribly well anywhere -- ~150K in Japan and 120K in the U.S. For another thing, it was very much an anomaly in terms of Japanese videogame development. Takahashi has made it extremely clear that Namco didn't expect much out of him as a producer and that he basically had to ride their ass to release an extremely cheap game that was mostly made by students. |
Exceptionally good point, but fighting businessmen even when you are making extremely safe genre titles is still a daily occurrence in this industry, in every country. Katamari Damacy wasn't released in Australiasia or Europe, but upon release of We Love Katamari it did very well. I must be thinking of We Love Katamari for the game that went extremely well.
| Cycle wrote: | | Access I think you have some interesthing things to say, but ultimately your extreme bias and speculation gives me little interest to continue this discussion that's clearly going nowhere and a waste of my time. Cheers! |
No more then the extreme bias I saw at the beginning of this thread. Well im not trying to be "woooo japan", consider me more "anti American" then pro anyone else. (Its certainly not about politically bias though). Im more just examining the types of Triple A games that comes from America and seeing how they appeal on average to less core members of gaming, including myself - and seeing how it stacks up. Im not a hard core gamer, 99% of the market isn't - sure you have Casual gaming at one end and you have Versus fighters, FPS and Elders Scrolls at the other. The happy medium is in between those two extremes.
In any case, everyone has been completely non emotive, which is fantastic.
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Cycle
Mac daddy
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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Ok I couldn't help myself. I'll try to make this my last post since I don't really have time for these kind of internest discussions anymore.
| Access wrote: | | "The game also filled me with emotions, excitement, tension, agression, provided me with pure adrediline rushes and a feeling of companisionship when I played with a friend." - Any sport or even a poker game can do this - thats not art, nor is it what I find interesting about our medium - maybe your right, maybe games are the next Baseball and not the next theater *gets depressed*. I understand pure toys and ludological experiences have a large market. |
No, this IS art. There is an art to everything, including sports. There is an art to creating the perfect set of rules, there is an art to performing strategic moves in chess. Again, you're displaying a very closed mind. Art isn't just shit people use to express themselves! You're like this guy I talked to years ago who said dance music has no worth because it's NOT ART AND DOESN'T MAKE YOU FEEL and it IS art, it DOES make people feel, and I had to explain to him that there are emotions out side of the crap TooL and Pink Floyd sing about. Seriously, I'm not trying to insult here, but open up your mind a little! I have the same complaints about your "no art without the artist" comment. Your view just seems so limited. In any case, we should stop talking about ART since as we can see here, it's different things to different people. But I still think you're view is very narrow and I think you'd benefit from widening it a bit. Oh, and sure, those emotions can be felt in sports, but they feel different with videogames. For example, one of my favourite games is Space Giraffe which fills me with similar feelings, but it certainly ain't the same as playing a sport. It provides me with an experience I can't get anywhere else. An amazing game, that.
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Alot of games today are like playing them through a used coffee filter. |
What the hell is this? Are you serious? Instead of posting some crappy webcomic, how about you post some evidence to back up your claims? Let's take a look at some of the games you've cited here.
I'm not seeing too many browns here!
| Cycle wrote: | | Forget the recent casual market boom, Japan had amazingly high proportions of women playing video games, and it wasn't because the girls were playing the more violent genre games like Street Fighter. |
America and Japan are two very different cultures. That's it.
| Quote: | | Also I don't know why we are artificially limiting narratives to be explored through one character in a video game. I don't necessarily see why video games are advantageous to just sticking to looking through the world of one character. I think being "inside" one character is perhaps conducive to game play tension, but I think limited to convey most forms of drama. I can see instances where its a great method, like it can be a very visceral method to convey the loss of a friend for example (whereas the loss of Lord Lothar in Warcraft II you basically have no emotional investment in at all), but I don't necessarily understand the need to maintain that and try to fit all styles of emotions through that same window. |
There are plenty of First Person games that don't stick you inside one person. Tribes: Vengeance, for example, puts you on opposing sides of the war so you can experience it from both sides and it worked very well. COD 4 does something with multiple characters too, I believe, but I haven't played it yet. Deus Ex does an interesting thing where in cutscenes and during conversations, the camera isn't in first-person, reminding you that you're a certain character. Again, I don't mean to offend, but lots of things you say are out of ignorance.
| Cycle wrote: |
It would of done well in Japan if marketed right. Crash Bandicoot is a good example of a western game that was a craze in Japan. The problem stems from Psychonaughts was marketed by Zipatoni, a company that later went onto making the AllIwantForXmasIsaPSP disaster. I think with a simple redesign of the lead it could of been a massive hit in Japan of epic proportions. |
Comparing Crash to Pyschonauts is very unfair. For one thing, Sony owned Crash and it was one of their biggest properties at the time for their own console, so of course they threw money at marketing to make it popular in Japan. Hell, they even re-designed Crash to give him a more anime apperance. Pysconauts was developed and published by people with no money, and also no understanding of the Japanese market.
Furthermore, Crash was a virtually narrative free platform romp that could be accepted by people anywhere, regardless of language or culture. Pyschonauts, however, is a VERY american game. The character designs are all very american, the dailouge, story and humour are all very american and all the scenerios the player faces are very American. Hell, alot of the gameplay is also remeniscent of point and click adventure games, a genre that never really took off in Japan. And you really think it would be simple to get Japanese audiences to lap it up? Come on, you're kidding yourself. It doesn't help that if you strip away the narrative, you're left with an extremely medicore platformer.
In regards to your comments about directors and what not, look, I don't care about what directors think about what I said, my point is, games are not movies and they should be taking strides to not be like them. 98% of the time I play a jRPG or cutscene heavy game (which the Japanese are very guilty of) I get frustrated because it could just be a movie and, in most cases, I'd rather watch the movie because the gameplay is dull and does nothing to serve the story. Actually, this is also a rare case because the vast majority of these games have really terrible stories.
This is why I prefer games like Half-Life 2 and Bioshock and what have you, because they try to actually create narratives that take advantage of the medium and offer me experiences other mediums can't. I mean, I heard MGS4 has enough FMV to actually fill an entire movie! Surely there is a better way than that? There is, and Half-Life 2 is trying to work towards it.
Furthermore, I don't think we should be ignoring casual and indie games. Why should we? They're becoming a huge part of the American gaming scene and big companies such as Microsoft, Valve and even EA have been supporting and publishing them. Just because they didn't develop them doesn't mean we can't give them big kudos for publishing them and getting them out to more people.
It's also unfair compaing companies like bungie, valve and id to ones like Namco, Sega etc. They've been around for years, are huge companies with deep pockets and have the money to experiment and publish their own titles. Most of the American companies you name are new in contrast to these Japanese companies, and they're generally much smaller companies that can't afford big risks or to publish their own games (though Valve is heading in that direction with Steam which is great).
Much of what you say feels so unfounded or unfair. I'm just really finding it frustrating trying to talk to you which is why I tried to bail out eariler. I don't feel it's worth the trouble. I mean, I love lots of Japanese games, specifically most of the ones you mentioned earlier, but America has been doing plenty of great things, too. Sometimes it's just harder to find it or it's much more subtle than what Japan is doing.
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Access
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Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| Cycle wrote: | | Ok I couldn't help myself. I'll try to make this my last post since I don't really have time for these kind of internest discussions anymore. |
No worries, I will be as brief as possible.
| Cycle wrote: | | No, this IS art. There is an art to everything, including sports. There is an art to creating the perfect set of rules, there is an art to performing strategic moves in chess.. |
We are definitely going to have to disagree on this point.
Before this debate blows out, I will try to kill it here. My argument is just going to boil down to the following anyway;
haha, i love that image.
| Cycle wrote: | | For example, one of my favourite games is Space Giraffe which fills me with similar feelings, but it certainly ain't the same as playing a sport. It provides me with an experience I can't get anywhere else. An amazing game, that. |
While I havnt played it yet myself, I am a big fan of Yak Minter. If you liked that you should also play Temptest 2000, its like the British Rez. haha
| Cycle wrote: | | What the hell is this? Are you serious? Instead of posting some crappy webcomic, how about you post some evidence to back up your claims? Let's take a look at some of the games you've cited here. |
(As an aside, webcomics are the Political comic of the digital revolution. They can present arguments just as valid as a piece of writing.)
I avoided posting images because a screen shot war is something to avoid where you post a bunch of colourful images, and I post a bunch of brown ones. Its more effective to note im not alone with my view and that critics like Kieron Gillen and Yahtzee have also picked up on it.
| Cycle wrote: | | America and Japan are two very different cultures. That's it. |
You think its because the girls were different? I think its because they had games that were more accessible to them.
| Cycle wrote: | | There are plenty of First Person games that don't stick you inside one person. Tribes: Vengeance, for example, puts you on opposing sides of the war so you can experience it from both sides and it worked very well. COD 4 does something with multiple characters too, I believe, but I haven't played it yet. Deus Ex does an interesting thing where in cutscenes and during conversations, the camera isn't in first-person, reminding you that you're a certain character. Again, I don't mean to offend, but lots of things you say are out of ignorance. |
Well ive completed all these, so its not ignorance. In any case it was an aside to the heart of the debate. It was never first person versus 3rd person - I just ran off on another tangent.
| Cycle wrote: | | IComparing Crash to Pyschonauts is very unfair. For one thing, Sony owned Crash and it was one of their biggest properties at the time for their own console, so of course they threw money at marketing to make it popular in Japan. Hell, they even re-designed Crash to give him a more anime appearance. Pysconauts was developed and published by people with no money, and also no understanding of the Japanese market. |
(As an aside, Sony doesn't own Crash.)
I did mention a redesign of the Psychonaughts character would be needed. But you are right it is a tad unfair because Crash was published by Sony and did have more money to throw around. I still dont think it would of been as unreasonably difficult as you make out though.
| Cycle wrote: | | Hell, alot of the gameplay is also remeniscent of point and click adventure games, a genre that never really took off in Japan. And you really think it would be simple to get Japanese audiences to lap it up? |
(As an aside, Point and Click adventures are taking off now thanks to the DS and Wii. But interactive novels like Kana Little Sister never really took of any where in the west.)
There was only two or three instances where item's were collected and had to be used in a certain way. Even the selection of the right tool to blend in with Secret Spys isn't unprecedented in Japanese game play. The game was still largely a combat focused treasure hunt with really unique set pieces in it that are easily enjoyed by multiple markets, like running through an under water bubble, running through a Technicolored bull running street, giant monster Goggler stepping on people - I dont think these are themes that couldn't be appreciated by the everyday Japan gamer.
I guess, when all is said in done we can spend an eternity about 'What If', we understand each other - you think it would be extremely difficult to get it to be a success there, and I think its not as difficult as you make out - and as another aside I believe Psychonaughts marketing was incompetent all around.
| Cycle wrote: | | In regards to your comments about directors and what not, look, I don't care about what directors think about what I said, my point is, games are not movies and they should be taking strides to not be like them. 98% of the time I play a jRPG or cut scene heavy game (which the Japanese are very guilty of) I get frustrated because it could just be a movie and, in most cases, I'd rather watch the movie because the game play is dull and does nothing to serve the story. Actually, this is also a rare case because the vast majority of these games have really terrible stories. |
And im arguing that static cinematics dont have to be exorcised completely and can be used at the directors discretion can be used to enhance an overall video game. Plus I find an extended cinematic a relief after a combat heavy situation. Take something like Final Fantasy X, a game hard core gamers loathed but was embraced the world over - I found the narrative genuinely inspiring. Could the story of worked in a movie - yes your right, it could. Could the script if given to a great film director be turned into an even better piece of work - yep you'll be surprised that I probably agree with that also. But I think thats largely because our video game Citizen Cane hasn't come along to show everyone how to tell traditional narratives through games. But for the mean time, the markets of less hard core players the world over seem to be getting a lot out of the genre of JRPG's - including me.
| Cycle wrote: | | This is why I prefer games like Half-Life 2 and Bioshock and what have you, because they try to actually create narratives that take advantage of the medium and offer me experiences other mediums can't. I mean, I heard MGS4 has enough FMV to actually fill an entire movie! Surely there is a better way than that? There is, and Half-Life 2 is trying to work towards it. |
The best comic I ever read was Watchman, it provided not only pages of images with comics, but also pages and pages of traditional novel like pages. The comic was using its power as a collection of different mediums of art and the written word. I see no reason why video games cant be a collection of various different mediums either. Im not opposed to Interactive Graphic Novels like Kana Little sister either. Sure, interaction is great and I think its good games explore that in every which way possible, but I think the template found in Drake's Fortune is by far potentially more successful at telling a narrative then something in the Half-Life 2 or BioShock mold.
| Cycle wrote: | | They're becoming a huge part of the American gaming scene and big companies such as Microsoft, Valve and even EA have been supporting and publishing them. |
Because we were comparing mainstream core video games found on the Famitsu list versus American made core video games - where I was arguing that the Japanese core gamers appealed to a wider audience. Actually I was more brash then that and just called American made core games shit, but I was drawn into a debate where I had to actually define what I meant by Shit - which is, doesnt appeal to me and the wider market.
Clearly if you take into consideration Indy games, American developers are champions.
| Cycle wrote: | | Most of the American companies you name are new in contrast to these Japanese companies, and they're generally much smaller companies that can't afford big risks or to publish their own games (though Valve is heading in that direction with Steam which is great). |
Well you can make excuses for them all you like. Doesnt much change my point
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Dracko
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Joined: 10 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:02 am Post subject: |
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Why is this thread so awful OH HELLO JAPAN IN THE PROMISED LAND
I can't believe you're using The Watchmen as a counter-argument to cutscenes being anything but awkward, insecure bullshit. Comics can employ techniques from various mediums because that's what they are in the first place. Just like books can mimic transcripts or even manuals. Video games, especially in light of today's trend of QTE foolishness, seem less interested in making a good game than they are in being a platform for genuinely poor story-telling.
You want good examples of games using their relationship to other mediums? Okay: Play Marathon, with its tale told in nothing but pure and sometimes abstract level design and chat transcripts. Or Call of Duty 4, with its assured (and genius) use and even subversion of not only Hollywood tropes but modern war media. Cutscenes should be no excuse or replacement for a genuine acts of involving story-telling. I don't care if all that nonsense contextualises my actions in a Metal Gear Solid game: Kojima should be making films instead. The only times I can think of cutscenes not being infuriating are few and far between, and only seemed justified by their brevity but also never seemed to deal with your character as such: Leave my actions to me. You can show me the repercussions of them (Black, for instance, or the brilliant Ace Combat 04) or show me what's happening elsewhere if you really feel the need to, but leave my actions be my own. It breaks character more than anything else.
I'm all for grand stories and big ideas in games, such as the Legacy of Kain series, Deus Ex, Thief (actually, I'm not sure these two count all that much), Shadow of the Colossus, Metal Gear Solid, etc, but communicate them to me more elegantly. Get me involved! There's no reason not to keep trying, and for all their flaws, games like Half-Life² and BioShock (Fuck that game hard, though) at least give a damn (They still both pale in comparison to Call of Duty: Modern Warfare, though). Why do no jRPGs ever play like the promise of their CG? Answer: Because they can't, and because, sadly, grinding addiction is a lucrative modern ill. Even old-school platformers like the Mario Bros. classics - or the very clear progression seen in an epic like Sonic 3 & Knuckles come to that - do it better.
So yeah, there's a reason Japan are getting the shaft at the moment: The more progressive talents, those willing to try something new, are in the West. It will take a lot more than deliberate weirdness and the shackles of horribly socially crippling genres like mainstream anime and its dark twin, jRPGs, to convince me otherwise.
Also, image macors and FUCKING VG CATS should be made bannable offences.
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SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: |
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I'm frustrated with this thread because I agree with Access on many of her tangents, they're just not very good evidence for her assertions. Yes, it's a shame games from America are often less colorful. Yes, it's a shame games from America often choose the first person perspective as the vehicle for their progressive ideas. Yes, I agree that there's too much blind cutscene hatred. Yes, it's great when games strive for more than just entertainment.
I'm just not sure any of these things really prove any of her assertions.
Perhaps the most important contradition is this:
| Access wrote: | I *try* to stay away from labeling what is and isnt art, but I always rope myself into it. Some people I know feel anything creative is art, personally I draw my own line in the sand based on whether I can see an intention behind a piece of work. Something beyond just telling a story, or making people happy or sad. But actually conveying a point of view.
Well im not as much interested in fun or light entertainment or escapism. Im interesting in video games as a mode of conveying an artists point of view. An interesting game I keep hearing about, but still question whether it actually exists is a game where your character is stuck on the World Trade Centre on September 11. Everything is on fire and there is a smashed window. You can run around the room and be burnt to death, or you can jump out the window and fall to your death. |
This one is important because c'mon, what the fuck man? What Japanese/European/American mainstream games do this? Rez, Ico, SOTC, Half Life 2, any Final Fantasy, Mario, Zelda, Metroid, any Dragon Quest, Nights into Dreams, Katamari Damacy, and Pac-Man certainly don't. The one that might come closest is Rez, and the point of view presented by that is, "isn't techno music neato?"
I agree with you in general. Yeah, it would be cool if games did this, but it has no place in an argument for or against American games and thus has no place in this discussion.
| Access wrote: | | SuperWes wrote: | | Non-gamers are as unlikely to play Shadow of the Colossus as they are to play Halo 3. They're likely to play Spider Solitare though! |
But they are more likely to play Mario Galaxy, Nights into Dreams, Katamari Damacy and a million others which I don't think have American counter parts besides a very very elite small number of titles like the Sims. (Ignoring casual games of course) |
This is just wrong. The implication here is that all non-gamers are women, and that's just not true. Any dude who doesn't play games is a lot more likely to sit down and play Gears with you even if they won't be very good at it than they are to play Mario Galaxy, and it all comes down to aesthetic preference, nothing more. Casual games like browser games and cell phone games are far more important in getting non-gamers to play games because, well, because non-gamers probably already are gamers and they just don't realize that playing Windows Backgammon online for a few hours every night makes them gamers.
I don't really want to be a part of this other line of discussion but I've got to ask it: How is Gear of War's "Art of co-op" any less important than that in Monster Hunter Portable 2, the #1 game of all time as voted by Famitsu readers in Japan (which also happens to be a more brown game than Gears of War ever will be)? I'd argue Gears is immeasurably more important by nature of being online, implemented around convenience, and story-based.
-Wes
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Dracko
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Joined: 10 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: |
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Shadow of the Colossus is pretty brown, but no one bitches about it.
They'd be fucking stupid to, actually.
| Quote: | | Yes, it's a shame games from America often choose the first person perspective as the vehicle for their progressive ideas. |
How so? What's inherently wrong with the first-person perspective, and with trying to improve it? Dead Space looks set to follow the lessons learned from progressive FPS narratives, and it's a third-person game! Oh phew!
I do wish people would find better examples of cutscenes working to benefit an experience, rather than intruding upon it, or trying to shy attention away from glaring design flaws.
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SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | How so? What's inherently wrong with the first-person perspective, and with trying to improve it? Dead Space looks set to follow the lessons learned from progressive FPS narratives, and it's a third-person game! Oh phew! |
Because people who have biases against it won't get to experience progressive narratives and because it limits the benefits of these narratives to the shooter genre.
| Dracko wrote: | | I do wish people would find better examples of cutscenes working to benefit an experience, rather than intruding upon it, or trying to shy attention away from glaring design flaws. |
Uncharted is probably the best example, but Metal Gear Solid and Mass Effect are a few more. These are stories that are worth telling but can't be told using the verbs available on a controller and can't be improved by removing interaction from the equation.
-Wes
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parkbench
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Take something like Final Fantasy X, a game hard core gamers loathed but was embraced the world over - I found the narrative genuinely inspiring. Could the story of worked in a movie - yes your right, it could |
It's interesting that you use this example because the game actually goes to great lengths to try and cross the cinematic gap with "special" boss battles: there are several sequences where narrative elements that don't abide by normal boss/battle logic (swimming through tunnels while fighting, fighting on top of an airship) bring about "context choices" that oftentimes only do one thing, and they have to be done. But their existence gives the player a sense of agency.
I mean obviously this is in the midst of didactic cinemas, but those battles were definitely a step forward.
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Dracko
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Joined: 10 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperWes wrote: | | Dracko wrote: | | How so? What's inherently wrong with the first-person perspective, and with trying to improve it? Dead Space looks set to follow the lessons learned from progressive FPS narratives, and it's a third-person game! Oh phew! |
Because people who have biases against it won't get to experience progressive narratives and because it limits the benefits of these narratives to the shooter genre. |
Some people don't like reading books. Some people don't watch television. Some people are freaks and don't like music.
Why does it matter? They can clearly live without it. What would be the point in trying to cater to them?
Also, Mass Effect and Metal Gear Solid are perfect examples of cutscenes doing everything but adding to the inherent experience. I don't care what the fanboys say, those games are clunky as fuck.
If these stories are worth telling, why cripple them in mediums that do not play to their strengths?
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SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | SuperWes wrote: | | Because people who have biases against it won't get to experience progressive narratives and because it limits the benefits of these narratives to the shooter genre. |
Some people don't like reading books. Some people don't watch television. Some people are freaks and don't like music.
Why does it matter? They can clearly live without it. What would be the point in trying to cater to them? |
Well, uhh, I like genres other then FPS too. I think it's really incredibly fucking stupid to say that it's the only genre that should be given the privelage of telling a story well. There's nothing wrong with the fact that FPS games do it, but there is something wrong with the fact that other games don't.
| Dracko wrote: | Also, Mass Effect and Metal Gear Solid are perfect examples of cutscenes doing everything but adding to the inherent experience. I don't care what the fanboys say, those games are clunky as fuck.
If these stories are worth telling, why cripple them in mediums that do not play to their strengths? |
Because you're wrong. Metal Gear doesn't work as well in other genres. I read the comic book. It's drawn by fucking Ashley Wood! It's about as well done as a comic book about Metal Gear Solid could possibly be and it's nowhere near as effective as the game.
The reason for this is that the themes of Metal Gear are firmly rooted in its storytelling. As the story plays out you're asked to examine what it means in terms of the game industry, Kojima's history, interaction, the player's experience, the world the player lives in, etc. Yeah, it's a bit long-winded, but just because someone needs an editor doesn't mean their stories or storytelling techniques are bad.
As for Mass Effect, I haven't read the book, but I'm not at all interested in doing so because the story they're telling would be nothing without choice and consequence. Granted, the consequences for most of your choices are a bit weak, but the effect is still the same. You the player must decide how you want your characters to react to different situations and must live with those results.
BUT generally I agree with you. It's better when games can tell their stories without cutscenes. For 90% of all games they take it for granted that they're going to do things this way because, hey, games are supposed to have stories and this is how stories are done. This is complete bullshit. The method itself isn't bad, it's the way developers blindly use it that makes it so despicable.
-Wes
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Harveyjames
the meteor kid
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| SuperWes wrote: |
Because you're wrong. Metal Gear doesn't work as well in other genres. I read the comic book. It's drawn by fucking Ashley Wood! It's about as well done as a comic book about Metal Gear Solid could possibly be and it's nowhere near as effective as the game.
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I think putting these stories in a medium we have higher expectations of makes it apparent how boring and rubbish they are. A Metal Gear Solid movie would be bad because the story of Metal Gear Solid isn't very interesting.
Stories in games are mostly about rescuing princesses, so anything with any kind of literary ambition looks like a work of genius by comparison, and Metal Gear Solid has literary ambition in spades! Don't confuse that with the story being good, though! Self-indulgent, yes; pretentious, probably; good, no. At best, the game is a 'curio'. This is why the comic book wasn't any good.
So I guess what I'm saying is Metal Gear Solid doesn't work well in ANY medium. |
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SuperWes
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| Harveyjames wrote: | | Stories in games are mostly about rescuing princesses, so anything with any kind of literary ambition looks like a work of genius by comparison, and Metal Gear Solid has literary ambition in spades! Don't confuse that with the story being good, though! Self-indulgent, yes; pretentious, probably; good, no. At best, the game is a 'curio'. This is why the comic book wasn't any good. |
But we're not really talking about whether or not the game or story are any good, we're talking about whether or not cutscenes are an effective storytelling technique in the given games. If we want to cross out games with bad stories we can remove Half Life 2, Call of Duty 4, Mass Effect, and Metal Gear from the discussion.
But yeah, I never said the comic wasn't any good. It's pretty good! It's just that it lacks the literary oomph of the games.
-Wes
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Dracko
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: |
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Call of Duty 4 really isn't that dumb when you take its sub-themes to heart over the Hollywood smorgasbord of world-hopping warfare.
Also, I'm not wrong: You've basically admitted the Metal Gear game don't have a story worth telling, because its techniques cripple it the moment you turn the console on. This isn't news to anyone who doesn't get a meak hard-on for controllers vibrating during cutscenes or soldiers sitting on toilets.
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"This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
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SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | Also, I'm not wrong: You've basically admitted the Metal Gear game don't have a story worth telling, because its techniques cripple it the moment you turn the console on. |
This might be a good argument and might not be. Honestly, I have no idea what the hell you're saying.
Call of Duty 4 has good internal stories within each mission, but the overall flow of the levels is weak. Jumping around between characters is a good narrative tool to use, but the overall story arc gets lost in the attempt to keep things fresh from level to level. It needs more cohesion. This doesn't make it a bad game, but it sort of makes it a bad story.
-Wes
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helicopterp
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Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 1435
Location: Philadelphia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Harveyjames wrote: | | Stories in games are mostly about rescuing princesses, so anything with any kind of literary ambition looks like a work of genius by comparison |
I'm a little bothered by your assumption that stories about rescuing princesses lack literary ambition. We shouldn't confuse simplicity with stupidity.
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Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one. |
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Malloc
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Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 37
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| Access wrote: | | Blizzard now that Bill Roper has left im still not convinced can produce anything good anymore |
Fun story about this!
When Flagship set out to do Hellgate, they managed to piss off their first publisher so bad that they dropped the project and EA picked it up. They then pissed off EA so bad that EA supposedly has a standing policy in place to never work with the team again under any circumstances. By all accounts they were completely impossible to work with. It was like hiring a combination of The Comic Book Guy and Lindsay Lohan to program your game. The maintenance level was absurd and the egos were out of control. The default answer to complaints regarding their game was literally "we made Diablo so fuck you".
Cue: Hellgate failing miserably.
So yeah. I'm not worried about Blizzard's pedigree with Roper's crew gone. |
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dhex
Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 6319
Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Take something like Final Fantasy X, a game hard core gamers loathed but was embraced the world over - I found the narrative genuinely inspiring. |
"i hate you, dad!"
i joke, but you must also understand how creepy it was to come from a fairly long while of jokingly referring to jrpgs as the "i hate you dad" genre and then getting to ffx.
also you've clearly never played planescape: torment. planescape has a better story than most movies, and should have inspired a wave of cross-cultural suicides as writers in japan, europe and america were shown their true face in its mirror, and found lacking, removed themselves from the gene pool for the health of the race. ahem.
or the dozens of other amazing american titles that mostly showed up on the pc because that's where the party is at. (much like a mullet, pc games are business up front and a party in the rear.)
of course, most of this conversation was a veiled discussion of taste, salted with hopes and dreams.
then again, perhaps i'm only saying that because my tastes are largely geared towards the lowest common denominator. the first-person perspective is so awesome i get vertigo from jumping off of tall buildings, and i hate vertigo, which never stops me from getting up once again to jump off of stuff just to experience the XTREME awesomeness. in fact, i wish the denominator was even lower, maybe by packing the numerator with a bullet camera, or better yet, an internal organs camera so you can see the spleen exploding at 4xAA and particle processing. i want abel ferrara-esque splashes of a bloody new jack swing.
fuck art, let's kill. eastern europe is our future savior, being a depressed, weird and kooky genotype.
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