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dhex
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Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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 Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: |
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yeah, i'd take a trip in his honor but the bust a few years back plus the black hole of acid called burning man makes that pretty much impossible.
but the bouncer cheered me up with this gem:
| Quote: | Rats
Once, at one of the clubs I worked, I ran an experiment. At this particular club – long since closed, remodeled and opened under another name – everything had already started going to shit, and nobody gave a flying fuck what anyone else was doing unless it cut into the remaining cash stream. The remaining cash stream was already well-defined and channeled where it needed to be channeled, so the only way you could make waves in this shithole was to try and tap into that flow if you weren’t on the approved list.
In other words, we did whatever we wanted, and nobody gave a shit so long as they went home with their minimum.
My experiment was simple. I took four stanchions and four strands of velvet rope, and I made a square in the middle of one of the VIP sections. Inside this square, I put one of those club-cube end tables. On the club-cube end table, I placed a lit candle. I posted a bouncer on each side of the square. They were instructed to not, under any circumstances, let anyone inside the square.
Since I was “in charge” of this VIP section – I stood at the door, which ostensibly made me the senior bouncer in the area – the regulars knew who I was. Every ten minutes or so, I made a point of stepping through the ropes to the inside of the square. I would make a show of inspecting the table and the candle, then I’d pretend to make radio calls. After that, I would tap a bouncer on the shoulder, point to the inside of the square, and say, “Nod your head at me so these fucking morons will think I just told you something important.”
First, people started asking questions. I expected this. Then, when the liquor and the drugs began kicking in, they started asking to get inside the square. After an hour or so of this came the first attempts to breech the perimeter. The bouncers I’d posted at the ropes were in on the experiment, so they were willing to endure this for me. Nobody got in.
Next came tension. People asked us if we knew who they were. They asked for “favors.” They dropped names. They told us we’d lose our jobs if we didn’t let them in. One told me to go get a “real job.”
Finally, a bouncer named Joe held up a twenty dollar bill. He was declared the winner, and the experiment came to a close. |
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dhex
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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question of the day: will mugabe walk away without murdering anyone?
magic eight ball sez: fat fucking chance
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| dhex wrote: | | oh yeah saw the murakami exhibit at the brooklyn museum last week some was interesting and some was life-sized soul cancer complete with jizz lassos. i've spent 10 bucks in worse ways but i've also done it in better as well. |
I just recently found out Murakami was at my university the same time I was there, 1993-95, i.e. before he sold out.
Then again, it took me a while to realize who Daniel Dennet was there, even after I helped him transfer some email, and that was even after I had read "The Mind's I".
What the hell was I doing there and then?
...
Oh yeah.
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dhex
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: |
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i thought his whole thing was about "selling out"?
i think part of the reason the handbag selling people and their creepy white suits didn't bother me is that you're in a museum that regularly sells $150 art books and all sorts of stuff 25 to 40% above what you'd pay through other outlets. they're already a retail chain. and that's a good thing, too, because all taxpayers end up paying far too much for something that's really only meant for the use of a small segment of the population.
it's a lot like a baseball stadium, except not as popular or as astronomically expensive. the beer is just as pricey, though.
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seryogin
JRPG Kommissar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 886
Location: Occupied Stalingrad
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Protip about anything Japanese: don't pay attention to anyone named Murakami.
One day I shall write you a letter, mike, which will provide you with a nice handy set of things that Japanese culture is good for, with the grand assumption being: yes, Japan is a nation of gelded neurotic pedophiles and no, that does not diminish the sublime nature of their profound culture. The problem is that your approach to the Japanese is all wrong.
In fact, I almost did so this weekened. I was in the process of composing a letter about the Magus to you, cursing your taste for recommending such a vile book, but then the Magus got better around page 300 and that fucked me up. So the letter remains unsent.
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: |
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oops maybe i was thinking of the wrong murakami
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dhex
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: |
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murakami the art guy is not murakami the writer guy, right? i'm going to presume that.
the magus is awesome.
good stuff:
boredoms
tokyo drift
those cool headbands you wear before you flip out and kill a bunch of people with your plane
mishima who did just that, except surrounded by naked men and crazy pants
boris
comfortable slippers
mild stuff:
japanese beetles
bad:
everything else
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seryogin
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: |
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There are three Murakami: two are bad writers, and the third is a fairly dull artist. It's a common last name and a lot more famous people have had it, but those three are the ones that are known in the US.
| Quote: | those cool headbands you wear before you flip out and kill a bunch of people with your plane
mishima who did just that, except surrounded by naked men and crazy pants |
I guess I don't need to send that letter then! Everything that is derived from this spirit is usually much better than things that aren't: Hayao Miyazaki (for proof of this see Mamoru Oshii's famous essay on the man), Rurouni Kenshin OVA, Akira, etc.
There are, of course, execptions to this and I can think of many already, but the rule still holds. Also, mike, if you ever want to know why I like the Japanese, you should read Empire of the Sun by Ballard and note the way he describes the Japanese. If you can see beauty there, then you can appreciate the Japanese.
If not, well, what does it matter.
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dhex
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: |
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i have empire of the sun at home and i should read it.
i'm reading "never let me go" by the anglo-japanese guy who wrote remains of the day. it's actually remarkably good and very fucked up.
| Quote: | | Everything that is derived from this spirit is usually much better than things that aren't: Hayao Miyazaki (for proof of this see Mamoru Oshii's famous essay on the man), Rurouni Kenshin OVA, Akira, etc. |
ok i don't know who any of these people are.
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seryogin
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: |
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I don't have much a taste for Kazuo Ishiguro, I read Remains of the Day six years ago and don't remember anything at all about it. He also dissed Mishima, which is not cool.
Akira is a movie. Kenshin is a samurai anime and comic book series (not essential, really, but the prequels to the series I've watched like dozens of times). Hayao Miyazaki is an animator and comic book artist, his fillms are constantly ripped off by videogames, especially JRPGs. Usually not very well. If you watch one of his movies (Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke ring any bells?), you lose two hours, RPGs take twenty hours and are usually not a tenth as good. Mamoru Oshii directed Ghost in the Shell, though the things about him that are actually interesting have nothing to do with that. He also has this passive aggressive attitude towards Miyazaki.
Empire of the Sun is Ballard's best book, I think. I really didn't think Ballard had it in him. But he wrote an honest, original, delightful book (disclaimer: I don't like Ballard). You don't have to read the whole book, but if you have the time today, go home and read the first three chapters, about 30 pages altogether, and then you'll understand what I mean. Also, the middle gets really slow and boring and then it all picks up at the end.
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dhex
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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i like ballard as an essayist a lot more than as a novelist. but i will dip into that.
anyway, i would heavily recommend never let me go. it is fucked up, sez i. not quite magus fucked up but still.
the wife watched the moving castle movie while i made chocolates last december. the voice acting was annoying. why is the message always "you can find it in yourself to succeed" rather than "everything you do is futile"? that's always confused me.
i saw ghost in the shell when we got a review copy back at the college paper. it was pretty decent but of course the ending is NINE YEAR OLD GIRL ROBOT. does japan like bleeding and crying that much? shit. c'mon guys. even that homeless guy robert crumb took time off from balloon titties to do dishes once in a while.
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dhex
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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oh yeah in all seriousness tokyo drift was the most entertaining movie i've seen in a long time.
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Alright, I'll bite, what's so bad about "Norwegian Wood" Murakami?
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Scratchmonkey
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Prepare yourself for a Sergexplosion!
ETA: Although I bet if you searched for Murakami, you could find past discussions of him pretty easily where Sergei lays down why he chaps his hide. |
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seryogin
JRPG Kommissar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
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Location: Occupied Stalingrad
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | the wife watched the moving castle movie while i made chocolates last december. the voice acting was annoying. why is the message always "you can find it in yourself to succeed" rather than "everything you do is futile"? that's always confused me |
Fucking shit, this is the best thing you've ever said on this topic, and the first argument against modern Japanese pop culture that I've found convincing. This is something that's been vaguely bothering me for years now; thanks for putting it so bluntly. Either I've been hooked on Japas for too long, or I've been getting dumber over the years, but I never thought about things in this way.
Also, Howl is not that good of a movie. It has its moments, but the earlier stuff is much more impressive (Nausicaa, Mononoke).
I don't much like Ballard as anything. His cultural criticism sucks.
i saw ghost in the shell when we got a review copy back at the college paper. it was pretty decent but of course the ending is NINE YEAR OLD GIRL ROBOT. does japan like bleeding and crying that much? shit. c'mon guys. even that homeless guy robert crumb took time off from balloon titties to do dishes once in a while.
Between this and coining "Japanese supremacist" to describe JRPG fans you've got a funny anti-Japan thing going. You see, I usually groan and spend ten minutes thinking up ways of insulting you whenever I see you write about Japan. It's the sheer laziness of most of your attacks that bother me, dude. If you're going to attack God's people, do it boldly and cleverly. The same goes for Russia.
Also, mike, does the Magus actually get good at some point. So far it just feels like lame Brit wannabe French existentialism mixed in with Brit eccentricity, and the prospect of imagining more British sex is not very appealing. I hate your taste in movies and games for the most part, but I've found that we CAN agree on books lots of the time. Let me know.
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dhex
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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of course it's lazy. i go for the cheapest laughs possible.
but yeah dude the magus gets fucking awesome. the buildup is there for a reason. trust me on this.
also if you haven't read the collector, please do.
you know, the whole soul cancer thing really came into its own after seeing the protagonist in the collector echoed by all these internet anime people. it makes sense.
but in all seriousness have you seen tokyo drift?
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seryogin
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Check the Reading Thread for other attacks against Murakami. I write one whenever I get roped into reading one of his novels. Here's the most recent one, culled from my live.journal.
| Quote: | The train ride was not wholly unpleasant and I read Haruki Murakami’s Norwegian Wood throughout the way.
I can’t stand Murakami. He’s annoying as hell. For all of his popularity, I’ve never lost the feeling that he’s a very amateur writer and a dullard to boot. There’s no greater sign of the decline of generations than Murakami’s ascension to the role of Japan’s most popular literary author. A position occupied by Yukio Mishima forty years prior.
Mishima, unlike Murakami, was an artist as well as a professional. He came around after the end of War and had a hell of at time trying to sell his German decadent death-obsessed poetics to the left-wing-dominated postwar publishers. Though he kept honing his talent, eventually transporting his Meiji-era sensibilities into the post-nuclear age. One of the few successful blends of 19th century romantic obsessions and style with the then contemporary landscape.
Like his mentor, Yasunari Kawabata, Mishima felt no qualms about using his talent to write maudlin love stories for the women’s magazine market. It was a means of earning money for him and he produced reams of hackwork without a second thought. Yet he also made sure to devote the rest of his time to more serious works.
His work ethic leaves me speechless. No matter how difficult his day had been, he’d always spend at least six hours on his writing, from midnight to five am. And this was ironclad; he’d never missed a single deadline in his life. He only broke this rule once, when he was forty-two-years-old and undergoing rigorous military training at one of the Jietai bases. Even after getting rich and famous, he’d never lost his commitment to writing every night.
He also did a wonderful job of stage-managing his celebrity. He played the media like few Japanese stars before him. He became an actor in bad gangster movies (I’ve seen one of them A Bastard Going the Way the Wind Blows; a very stupid movie overall), directed plays, traveled all over the world, and organized his own private army. My favorite was the posters he thought up for my his play My Friend Hitler, which had Mishima grinning in a nazi uniform with the tagline “The Decadent Writer Mishima Publishes His Ode to the Dangerous Ideologue Hitler.” I don’t care about plays – I’ve seen enough of them in Moscow – but this was one production I really wished to have been alive to see.
He was thoroughly Western in a lot of his methods, but had a knowledge of Japanese literature that few men of his time could match. No less an authority than Kawabata, winner of Japan’s first Nobel Prize, spoke of Mishima as an artist that comes only once in a few centuries.
And Mishima threw away all of his fame do die gloriously in the last great piece of Japanese performance art. And left a note saying that he wanted to be buried with his sword and that his post-mortis Buddhist name shouldn’t contain the kanji for “pen.” He understood - despite his commitment to writing – that for man to be a writer was shameful. And so he died the death of a fanatic.
Like Hunter S. Thomson blowing his brains out, Mishima’s death proved to any doubter that he was serious about everything he wrote. I any of view want an introduction to Mishima without plowing through his biography, I’d suggest Paul Schraeder’s excellent and very rare film Mishima: A Life in Four Chapters.
And now you we have Haruki Murakami. In my mind there’s no comparison between the two men. It’d be like weighing a fly against a galaxy. But I can’t help myself. You people have made him famous throughout alt.gameosphere: SB-ers and co. You’ve made the man your Tim Rogers-surrogate prophet and it rankles. I’ve read too many of his novels based on your recommendations and I’m going to take it out on you.
My first encounter with Murakami was in Russia. I saw a copy of one of his books in the big bookstore on Tverskaya, in full view of the Central Telegraph, with its half 3D globe with its superimposed hammer and sickle above the entrance. The book was Dance, Dance, Dance. It was in English in Cyrillic letters. I thought the book might be about Dance Dance Revolution and then quickly forgot about it.
Back in America, in the periodicals room of my university library, a place where I spent most of my time as a college student I’m sad to say, I was reading Ogonyok (The Little Light), which is the Russian version of Life, and came across a long feature about Murakami. I was amazed that my college carried the magazine; it even had bound volumes going all the back to fifties, some of those had Stalin portraits on the covers.
The feature talked about Murakami as someone who was the “voice of a generation.” And that merchants had adapted themselves to fans acting out fantasies from his works, such as the baker who didn’t mind it when couples came in, pretending to rob him for his bread (this is the plot of one of Murakami’s short stories). Much more appealing to me were the swathes of female groupies across the country. The author said that if you’d begun reading a particular passage from one his works to one of these girl, you wouldn’t be able to finish, because by the middle she’d already be unbuttoning her blouse. And the author wrote this very seriously. For that alone, I was willing to have Murakami’s ugly face and the kanji characters for his name branded onto my back like a yakuza tattoo. The thought that I could have sex with a Japanese girl in Japan – the greatest place on Earth – just by liking an author was too much. Having sex with a Japanese girl was my most sacred dream, more powerful than military glory and revenge, the one thing that could make the world feel right. And here I was, the only person besides the librarian in the air-conditioned hushed silence of the periodical room, burning from envious resentment. And this was accompanied by the twin brother of envy: the realization that I’ve failed at life and will continue to fail, something that caused by brain to go into pep talk overdrive. I’m not bad, things will work out, just work hard, everything would you wish for will come to you… and then it didn’t come…at least not when I would’ve made a difference. Ah… all very pathetic now, but true.
I made a note to read Murakami and quickly forgot about it. It was only after reading Tim Rogers’ enthusiastic Murakami-mentioning essays that I sought out his novels, which were housed were kept in the Japan section of my university library. I saw South of the Border, West of the Sun. I took it home and began reading it that night. I finished it four hours later and couldn’t remember reading a novel before that had so little content. Though I stuck with it, trying to figure out the point. I read it again and felt the feelings that one feels whenever he’s disappointed by something that all the cool people seem to like. Shame and the suspicion that one might be wrong. I can’t recall anything about the novel now, other than the fact that the narrator gets a blowjob at the end. I read that scene many times, in my bedroom, under the harsh gaze of my Dragonball Z posters. Man, those were some glorious days; spending every weekend at home, jerking off with Trunks looking at me with disapproval.
Okay that was one book. So I began another novel that weekend, A Wild Sheep Chase. If the other book had just lacked interesting characters and content, then this one was just stupid and even more amateurish. I couldn’t imagine what people saw in this work, why they’d kept reading. And what kind of dimwitted pathos they’d derived from it. I couldn’t finish it and started reading Banana Yoshimoto’s Goodbye, Tsugumi, which amazingly enough did everything that South of the Border tried to do, but better and with more honesty. Tsugumi was an adolescent love story and that was it. I read it while listening to Faye Wong and Dorikamu on my CD player and didn’t regret it.
I gave up on him. But then he kept getting recommended. So I ended up taking out Hard-Boiled Wonderland, which was allegedly drenched in Kojima-esque imaginative brainjuice. And then it wasn’t. It was the lamest work of fantasy I’d encountered since I stopped reading science fiction magazines.
And now I’ve come to this. Chris St. Louis, who used to live in Oregon and now lives in Japan, told me in a letter that reading Norwegian Wood was one of the most profound reading experiences of his life. I trusted him and bought it. I know you read my journal Chris and I’m here to let you know that you’ll pay for this. I mean it. It won’t come this year and not the next, but all debts will be paid, I guarantee you.
Now I was stuck reading it on the train. It starred a bland and very not well-observed narrator, a representative of Japan’s Generation X. I’d read fifty pages so far and was deeply disappointed. I’m serious. Deeply. I can stomach the thought that every single English-speaking person on the planet is a boring, vane fraud, but I had a better opinion of the Japanese. The idea that the land of Isshin Shishin and the Tokkotai has turned towards praising such rubbish really hurts. You people can’t imagine my disappointment. I’m used to believing that no matter how horrible a turn my professional life may take, the continued existence of the Japanese is one of things that makes the world bearable. I realize that that’s a non sequitur, but I’m not elaborating upon it now. Though their propping up of such useless windbags and turning them into heroes is making this task harder and harder. The older I get the more I think that Yukio Mishima and Yasunari Kawabata were the last of their kind, the last truly Japanese people the world will ever see.
This all has to do with the way Murakami writes his books. They’re plotted in a cheesy, haphazard way. He invents characters and relationships that don’t make much apparent sense and lack anything of interest. There are never any surprises or interesting turns, because Murakami will always use the lamest techniques to add weight to a story. He usually kills people off or makes them disappear. That’s pretty deep, you know, almost like Yoshiyuki Tomino in Final Gundam.
What’s more, the narrator of Norwegian Wood is incapable of making a single fresh observation of his time and place. I know very little about Japanese university life in the 70s, but methinks that it wasn’t this indistinguishable. I mean, Kinji Fukasaku worked this milieu into a bunch of his movies and it always ended up feeling fresher than this. Here, it’s like being stuck in some John Updike story about New Hampshire; criminally boring people leading criminally boring lives while conducting criminally boring conversations with each other.
This isn’t surprising, if you’ll consider that Murakami has his narrator praise Updike, as a way of differentiating himself from the mass of students reading Kenzaburo Oe and Mishima. I actually found myself laughing at that one. I don’t care if you’re a Jap, if you’re under 70 and don’t live in New England you can’t like John Updike and still consider yourself a human being. In fact, the only things I understand after one hundred pages is that Haruki Murakami likes the Beatles and bad American authors. He doesn’t seem to care about Japan, or people, or anything at all really. This is what happens when you give unlimited fame to a fool, guys. Lots of nothing.
Murakami seems to understand this, so he puts in a lot of weird dialogue scene for his narrator, who sounds like some dimwitted Raymond Chandler fanfic writer who gets a sick thrill from sticking Philip Marlowe into Granny’s Candy Apple Store and not letting him leave. He also shoves in a few nonsense twists here and there, just so you understand that this is some STRANGE SHIT. I guess this is what you people consider offbeat, profound writing. Well, fine… to quote Hunter S Thompson – and I hate dragging that poor man’s corpse into this – “it never got weird enough for me.” |
I'll trust you on the collector, then. I saw it at Strand for 50 cents, but picked up the Magus instead.
I have not seen Tokyo Drift. Like, dude, I've never liked a single movie you've recommended, and it's just not that entertaining to watch a shitty movie alone. And no shitty movie will ever top Brandon Lee's "You have the right to be dead" in showdown in little tokyo (best shit movie ever), so I think I'll pass.
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Like Hunter S. Thomson blowing his brains out, Mishima’s death proved to any doubter that he was serious about everything he wrote |
You do remember that this is Japan, right? Committing suicide is about as meaningful as goths wearing black here.
Spate of 'detergent suicides' hits Japan
OK, so roughly speaking, this is what I took from that of why you don't like him:
* he ain't Mishima
* he's way too popular
* he's a bad writer with poor bland characters and a lack of observational skill
All that is fair enough. You're probably as irritated with his fans as I am with people who really relate to "Catcher in the Rye". I would say, probably most of your literary criticisms are valid, but that he is exquisite at painting a certain blank mood, and I haven't encountered quite what he does in any other reading I've done. Maybe you think this isn't such a trick, just noir minus the exciting parts, so I'll fall back to my usual position that admiration by large groups of seemingly intelligent people probably represents some worthiness, even if it doesn't resonate with some.
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Redeye
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| dhex wrote: | ...
i saw ghost in the shell when we got a review copy back at the college paper. it was pretty decent but of course the ending is NINE YEAR OLD GIRL ROBOT. does japan like bleeding and crying that much?... |
Try Part 2.
Trying to give souls to RealDolls.
Worth fast forwarding through to look at the art.
I liked the parade.
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dhex
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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don't get me wrong, showdown in little tokyo is really amazing in its own way, but i'm just sayin'.
man, i really enjoy your memoir-style narratives.
| Quote: |
All that is fair enough. You're probably as irritated with his fans as I am with people who really relate to "Catcher in the Rye". |
if i ever make a game, it'll be a single screen adventure where you play as the last non-phony man in manhattan. while holden delivers his monologue (i.e. it's hard to be rich and sheltered) you have to combine items at the bar to commit suicide.
| Quote: | | admiration by large groups of seemingly intelligent people probably represents some worthiness |
naw, otherwise jd salinger would be worth something.
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Dracko
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| kirkjerk wrote: | | admiration by large groups of seemingly intelligent people probably represents some worthiness, even if it doesn't resonate with some. |
Hitler.
Fuck off.
I suspect people just like Murakami because it makes them feel like they're worldly while reading something so utterly characterless and dull it could be any American TV movie.
dhex, watch the TV series. It's better than the films, which are better than the original mangas.
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Scratchmonkey
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike, I'm gonna try and get that collection of short stories to you for the second time, hopefully it won't get eaten by Brooklyn again. |
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dhex
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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dracko: what tv series?
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seryogin
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="kirkjerk"] | Quote: | | Like Hunter S. Thomson blowing his brains out, Mishima’s death proved to any doubter that he was serious about everything he wrote |
You do remember that this is Japan, right? Committing suicide is about as meaningful as goths wearing black here.
[quote]
Well, no, not quite, an author shortlisted for the Nobel Prize choosing to commit suicide at the height of his wealth and prominence, in the most heretical, most debate-sparking way possible is a pretty big deal. But perhaps you are correct, I mean, really, why does that Socrates guy hog so much limelight?
Also stories about mass suicide in Japan are as lame as making a big deal about creepy Japanese porn, too loljapan for my taste. It's as much a shitty cliche of foreign reporting as talking about Russians "backsliding into authoritarianism." And have you heard about those British people, they have bad teeth and are really eccentric, who would have thought!
Dracko probably means the Ghost in the Shell TV series, which was pretty good, both seasons. But the idea of dhex watching an anime, in his house, while sitting on the couch, is just too fucking wild. It's not happening, is all I'll say.
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dhex
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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but no, mishima went out in a way that's very...well, i found it to be both comic and tragic, but it was definitely unique.
unrelated:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1661
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | kirkjerk wrote: | | admiration by large groups of seemingly intelligent people probably represents some worthiness, even if it doesn't resonate with some. |
Hitler.
Fuck off.
I suspect people just like Murakami because it makes them feel like they're worldly while reading something so utterly characterless and dull it could be any American TV movie.
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Well, fuck ya back. I also gave a reason besides "it's popular" and trying to avoid the worst of the "you just don't GET it" and "it's all Japanese Zen and stuff" argument, even though I think both are pretty legitimate in this case; there is a beautiful sense of mood, tone and rhythm in these books that are worthwhile and hard to find. Structure wise, that probably does have its roots in the characterlessness and dullness, but he makes something out of it that American TV movies can't.
His last "novella" (After Dark) is the best 1/3 of a novel I've read in a while. (Screensaver jokes aside)
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seryogin
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| dhex wrote: | but no, mishima went out in a way that's very...well, i found it to be both comic and tragic, but it was definitely unique.
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From the War Nerd.
| Quote: | People have tried, now and then, to convince Japan's wimpy "Self Defense Force" to stop acting like a Quaker college's marching band and get mean again. So far it hasn't worked. My favorite example here happened in l970, a bad time for militarists everywhere.
The man who tried to rouse Japan's military spirit was a writer named Yukio Mishima. A freak, no denying that, but at least he was anti-peace, pro-war-he had "moral clarity," as they say. Not your typical militarist, though-Mishima was an "avant-garde" novelist. Haven't read his books, but I'd imagine "avant-garde" means his books make no sense even in translation. He was also a flaming mariposa, gay as a Spartan bath attendant. Worked out non-stop, got very buffed (for a Japanese) and was always posing with his shirt off, trying to look Imperial, with that rising-sun flag wrapped around him, or wearing a samurai sword and headband-only he's always got that "Hi there, Sailor" expression which pretty much ruins the effect.
Still, his heart was in the right place, and I'm not going to do gay jokes because I realized after high school that in those four lousy years, no gay guy ever called me fatso.
Mishima proved his guts, and I mean that literally, on November 25, 1970, the day he died. He was sick of the new, feeble, peacenik Japan. So he decided to seize a Self-Defense base called Camp Ichigaya where he hoped to harangue the troops into getting back to old-school Imperialism and militarism stuff, like the good old days of 1939. The rest of his plan was kind of hazy, but he sort of hoped this would ignite something.
Mishima showed up at the base with four guys from his private army, the "Shield Society." An interesting group: not too big, about 100 members. And I hear Mishima picked them for their looks more than their fighting ability. Great uniforms, though.
What happened at the base that day is just plain hilarious, one of the funniest war stories ever. Mishima's party of five tromped into the commander's office. So far so good. Then Mishima took out his sword. The base commander flinched, so Mishima told him it was "for ceremonial purposes."
Which was a fib, because a second later, Mishima was threatening the CO with the blade while his men tied the poor paper-shuffling Colonel Klinko-san to his desk.
By this time about 800 soldiers were outside wondering what the Hell was going on. Mishima went out and started trying to whip the troops into a war frenzy.
Well, as the old showmen used to say, "tough crowd, tough crowd!" James Brown couldn't have got an "Amen!" from that crowd. As for Mishima, they laughed at the poor guy. He couldn't buy a "Banzai!" It turned into a standup comic's nightmare: they started heckling Mishima.
I've seen photos of Mishima making his final speech, and you can see why he bombed with the troops. For one thing he looks ridiculous, got this 1930's gay tunic thing on, and even though he's trying to scowl all stern like Mussolini he still has that same gym-mirror pose. He's just not scary.
Besides, it was 1970; the troops were probably stoned. Maybe if Cheech and Chong had staged a coup they'd've had a chance, but a serious Imperial throwback like Mishima made no sense to them at all.
They started tearing down Mishima's banners. So Mishima stopped, thought it over, and went back into the CO's office. He told the tied-up CO he was going to "shout banzai to the Emperor" and did, the old-school way: by kneeling, taking off the tunic and ripping his belly open. His disciples helped ease the pain by cutting his head off-still the best anesthetic around, beheading. Works faster than Morphine, lasts longer
After Mishima's head rolled off, one of them, a copycat, ripped his own belly open and had his head removed. He was probably the kind of kid who'd jump off a bridge if Johnny down the street did.
So here's the scene in the CO's office: we've got two heads on the floor, a really messy carpet they probably had to throw away, and a desk jockey General who was probably wondering if these wackos were going to add him to the pile of skulls or leave him alive to explain to his superiors how his base got seized by a gay novelist and his four boyfriends. That's a rock and a pretty durn hard place for a career officer.
Mishima's crazy death-day was the last time anybody tried to put any team spirit in Japan's poor old Self-Defense Force. The right wing was worn out, discredited by the war. The army was a joke. So where did young Japanese bloods eager for some action go in 1970? Simple: the far Left, the one place where violence was cool and hip. |
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Dracko
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| kirkjerk wrote: | Well, fuck ya back. I also gave a reason besides "it's popular" and trying to avoid the worst of the "you just don't GET it" and "it's all Japanese Zen and stuff" argument, even though I think both are pretty legitimate in this case; there is a beautiful sense of mood, tone and rhythm in these books that are worthwhile and hard to find. Structure wise, that probably does have its roots in the characterlessness and dullness, but he makes something out of it that American TV movies can't.
His last "novella" (After Dark) is the best 1/3 of a novel I've read in a while. (Screensaver jokes aside) |
I think you're either completely off your rocker or trying very hard to justify having squandered your scratch.
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Well, no, not quite, an author shortlisted for the Nobel Prize choosing to commit suicide at the height of his wealth and prominence, in the most heretical, most debate-sparking way possible is a pretty big deal. But perhaps you are correct, I mean, really, why does that Socrates guy hog so much limelight?
Also stories about mass suicide in Japan are as lame as making a big deal about creepy Japanese porn, too loljapan for my taste. It's as much a shitty cliche of foreign reporting as talking about Russians "backsliding into authoritarianism." And have you heard about those British people, they have bad teeth and are really eccentric, who would have thought! |
Whatever, I saw the CNN story just a few minutes before you told me what a big deal it was. Now my view of Japan is probably filtered by my American host there, though he's not a class fanboy I recognize he is not a perfect lens. He thought people jumping in front of trains was one of the reasons their trains were late, which they rarely were. And also that Gov Spitzer woulda offed himself right after or before the scandal broke. With that last observation, I'm still inclined not to thank of it as grand or troublesome a gesture as it would be in another context.
Yeah, coverage of stuff like "fat dumb americans" is facile and easy and its stupid to assume it always applies, but that doesn't mean it's not true.
My view of Socrates is a bit tempered by Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, who pointed out what an easy time Plato had as being well remembered when he got to put words in the mouths of his enemies in his writing.
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dhex
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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who's the war nerd?
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seryogin
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dhex
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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oh, another one of those exile people.
how many sad sacks can they fit on one magazine?
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | kirkjerk wrote: | Well, fuck ya back. I also gave a reason besides "it's popular" and trying to avoid the worst of the "you just don't GET it" and "it's all Japanese Zen and stuff" argument, even though I think both are pretty legitimate in this case; there is a beautiful sense of mood, tone and rhythm in these books that are worthwhile and hard to find. Structure wise, that probably does have its roots in the characterlessness and dullness, but he makes something out of it that American TV movies can't.
His last "novella" (After Dark) is the best 1/3 of a novel I've read in a while. (Screensaver jokes aside) |
I think you're either completely off your rocker or trying very hard to justify having squandered your scratch. |
You Just Don't Get It [TM], then.
I'm probably off my rocker, too, in thinking your implication that traditional characterization and action being the only worthwhile stuff in literature is kind of limited.
I'll admit when there's a book I don't like, and not buy more by the author.
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seryogin
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| dhex wrote: | oh, another one of those exile people.
how many sad sacks can they fit on one magazine? |
Quite a few, let me tell you. But in all seriousness the War Nerd is just a cover for John Dolan (it's obvious if you've carefully read both). The character started out as a joke, but he grew popular enough for them to keep him going.
And while neither of us is interested in having another one of those exile/ anti-exile things, even you admitted that John Dolan's memoir was pretty fucking good.
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dhex
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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it was good, but it's also apparently the only thing he does.
maybe they need more anime! get some insane hopefulness up in that shit.
| Quote: | | And also that Gov Spitzer woulda offed himself right after or before the scandal broke. |
i am intrigued by this alternate universe and would like to live there.
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seryogin
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, mike, everything you've said today is surprisingly reasonable and even lucid.
EDIT: I'm not going to argue that Dolan doesn't do the same thing all the time, but I like that. I like going back to the same stuff over and over again, perhaps this is why I watch the same porno clips every time, well, that I need to watch them.
I'm not being sarcastic in the above. btw.
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Dracko
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| kirkjerk wrote: | I'm probably off my rocker, too, in thinking your implication that traditional characterization and action being the only worthwhile stuff in literature is kind of limited.
I'll admit when there's a book I don't like, and not buy more by the author. |
I've implied no such thing.
I'm sorry I don't "get" shit books with no redeeming value whatsoever.
Are you honestly saying Murakami is good at writing moods, rhythm and tone? Because if so, well Jesus, go outside more, or read more books.
The mood is all "oh i am so dull and bored and sex maybe", the rhythm is, what? Sweet fuck all happens for fuck knows how many pages and maybe someone will cry or not and the tone is "if you're a loser who can't find excitement in your own miserable, squalid little life, then YOU'LL LOVE THIS BOOK ONLY A TENNER SUPPORT INDEPENDENT CINEMA".
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| dhex wrote: | | Quote: | | And also that Gov Spitzer woulda offed himself right after or before the scandal broke. |
i am intrigued by this alternate universe and would like to live there. |
OK, to be clear:
Spitzer's hookers probably would not have been a big deal in Japan, so you'd have to come up with a counterfactual where A. Spitzer is Japanese and B. Spitzer does something as "humiliating", ironically hypocritical, and career killing as his stuff in NY was. My friend's belief was that in this counterfactual, Spitzer-San would have taken himself out.
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Scratchmonkey
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Remember folks, don't stop halfway through jerking it, or you'll get maaaaaaad. |
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | Are you honestly saying Murakami is good at writing moods, rhythm and tone? |
Yes..
| Quote: | | Because if so, well Jesus, go outside more, or read more books. |
Ok.
| Quote: | | The mood is all "oh i am so dull and bored and sex maybe", the rhythm is, what? Sweet fuck all happens for fuck knows how many pages and maybe someone will cry or not and the tone is "if you're a loser who can't find excitement in your own miserable, squalid little life, then YOU'LL LOVE THIS BOOK ONLY A TENNER SUPPORT INDEPENDENT CINEMA". |
The mood is dark, and a kind of bravery in uncertainty and confusion. The rhythm is deliberate and often slow, with a lot of open space. The tone is a dark understated shadow of magical realism.
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Dracko
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Bullshit. You wouldn't know "dark" if it took you in an alley while clothing you in the torn guts of your pregnant wife. Let alone "bravery".
I'm fairly certain anyone who considers Murakami emotionally uplifting, let alone involving, has never experienced an emotion in the sordid dead affair they dare call a life.
Just how fucking boring can your hipster lifestyle possibly be to find his work of merit at all?
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | Just how fucking boring can your hipster lifestyle possibly be to find his work of merit at all? |
Boring enough to find it merit-worthy, along with listening to your hyperbole here enjoyable.
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Dracko
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Joke's on you, mate: You're actually giving money to read his abortions.
And proud of living it like that, too. Fucking Hell.
No, I'm curious now: Is this the only time you've read a novel or what? Do you picture the day-to-day grind as a "brave" thing? Do you find it acceptable to let yourself be fooled by this pseudo-existential farce? Are you comfortable with legitimising this arrant cynically-minded sophomoric drivel? Does the death of a genuine culture please you to the point that MacHipSartre queefs become an acceptable substitute?
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Redeye
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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On a related tangent, are these real suicides?
Also, the Ghost In The Shell TV series was ok.
The deal with that woman always being in her underwear in the first series was just wierd. wtf? (Maybe it was a 1-piece armored torso thingy and we only see the bottom part.)
The second series she got to wear clothes but the animation quality was inferior.
One series had better stories than the other but I can't remember which.
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Dracko
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Didn't they just bullshit it on the idea that she had very, very liberal ideas about sexuality in the work place? Or just used it to distract colleagues from her smarts?
The TV series also got a movie (ugh) which I hear was pretty good too.
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kirkjerk
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | And proud of living it like that, too. Fucking Hell. |
And you think of me is brave? Clearly your the stalwart defender of literature and genuine culture here, here
| Quote: | | No, I'm curious now: Is this the only time you've read a novel or what? |
Dude, what kind of question is that?
I guess its just rhetorical points, not a request for a "lay out the novels you've read" pissing contest; maybe I'd do ok in that.
Is liking Kundera real enough? Does liking Vonnegut undercut it? Does disliking Garcia Marquez blow me out of the water?
| Quote: | | Do you picture the day-to-day grind as a "brave" thing? Do you find it acceptable to let yourself be fooled by this pseudo-existential farce? Are you comfortable with legitimising this arrant cynically-minded sophomoric drivel? Does the death of a genuine culture please you to the point that MacHipSartre queefs become an acceptable substitute? |
Your questions are based on unwarranted assumptions,
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dhex
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm not being sarcastic in the above. btw. |
i know!
dracko, what the hell is your problem? fucking knock it off.
| Quote: | | Remember folks, don't stop halfway through jerking it, or you'll get maaaaaaad. |
important life advice.
anyway, this remains of the day guy wrote this book called never let me go and it was fucking insane. the craziest shit i've read in a while. recommended.
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seryogin
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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I was sleepy.
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Bulkor
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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OK, so, just to pitch in a random two cents on Mishima.
Mishima's another artifact of the cultural fallout from Japan's crazed nationalistic era. On the whole, Japan did an amazing job of processing the wartime bushido stuff into something useful for endeavors besides committing atrocities, but of course not everyone was (or is, even now) in favor of that kind of dramatic social change.
That said, I think there's no question that Mishima turned a phrase better than Murakami could ever hope to. |
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dhex
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Spitzer's hookers probably would not have been a big deal in Japan, so you'd have to come up with a counterfactual where A. Spitzer is Japanese and B. Spitzer does something as "humiliating", ironically hypocritical, and career killing as his stuff in NY was. My friend's belief was that in this counterfactual, Spitzer-San would have taken himself out. |
counterfactual or not, i'd still like to live there. though it was rather entertaining, watching that whole house of stupid fall in on itself. (thankfully, the cries of "republican plot" have died down - the general unreality of the "reality based community" people makes me sad after a while.)
speaking of houses of stupid:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kjw2Qccc1hE
good job, guys!
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