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console gamers: Y-axis look "normal" or inverted?
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"normal" or inverted?
normal
40%
 40%  [ 8 ]
inverted
50%
 50%  [ 10 ]
depends on the game
10%
 10%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 20

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kirkjerk
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:51 pm    Post subject: console gamers: Y-axis look "normal" or inverted? Reply with quote

So question:
normal or inverted for look up/look down? And can you say why?

I'm strictly inverted. It's either because of all the flight sims, or because I roughly map the control stick to the top of my character's head, so that pulling back / down is like raising chin, tilting head back. (Actually those two explanations aren't mutually exclusive)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inverted all the way, baby. It's hard to say why, it just seems to make sense, I guess?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends on context. Generally normal, though. The less abstraction the better!
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rumble or no lol

what difficulty do you play on the most lol

whats ure sens in halo tripple lol
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

normal.

it feels weird to consider that twin-stick camera control wasn't ubiquitous until a few years ago. i remember being confused for a little while in halo, as i swapped back and forth between inversion over the course of a subsequent (but irregular) multiplayer sessions at a friend's house. it wasn't that i had trouble grasping the idea of twin-stick control -- far from it: once i got a bit more acquainted with the game, i actually wiped the floor with my xbox-owning buds a few times until the magnitude of their experience finally outweighed that of my mad skillz -- but i guess that in terms of joystick-based first person control, my only precedents were mechwarrior and flight sims and the like. (i also swapped handedness repeatedly when first playing guitar hero at the same friend's house a while back, but i think that's mostly 'cause i'm retarded.)

if i were to play a flight sim or what-have-you on a controller today, i'd probably go with a normal y-axis, but on a traditional joystick i'd invert it without a second thought.
(actually, i hear some diehards are making custom usb adapters for the sidewinder 3d pro, and damned if i'm not tempted.)
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ee_emm_ecks wrote:
what difficulty do you play on the most lol

Easy?

Fun how you can set these defaults on the 360.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's the one irritating theme about playing through a single player game "tag team" style; the guy I tend to do that with prefers "normal" control, and so we always have to swap.

It just seems odd to me that there's such a fundamental, ingrained difference, and the other method feels so foreign. It seems like a deep schism, mapping a control to part of the avatar vs mapping the control to the viewport.

(It's kind of funny that left/right generally doesn't have this issue, though I've seen it feel backwards, I think it was "Graffiti Kingdom"... pressing left would swing the behind-the-player camera left, which would tend to show what was to the player's right.)

You have to admire games that try to be cute about "learning" which one the player wants to use, like Halo having a guy ask you "look up... look down"
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ee_emm_ecks wrote:
rumble or no lol

what difficulty do you play on the most lol

whats ure sens in halo tripple lol

Is this more of your "charity"?

Rumble can have some implications for immersion, though you know, I still think it's a little gimmicky. It's a little bit like how surround sound can be distracting if you've kind of mapped the action to "in front" of you, and then some random sound effect happens behind. Anyway, I usually don't change the default which is generally on.

Selection of difficulty is almost worth a topic of its own, and can go into the heart of what a gamer is after: the challenge, seeing something cool, bragging rights, or some blend of that. There's certainly a trend in game design to make sure that even a novice player has the chance of seeing the game to an ending. (There are exceptions to this, like Shinobi, but still) But it's a fine line; most gamers don't want to feel like they're having their hand held too much, or they're walking through a game that's playing itself, but overall the tolerance for frustration has gone down.

I don't understand the third question. sens? tripple? what's your controller sensitivity in Halo 3? Eh, doesn't seem to have as many implications, more personal preference of the balance between precision vs quick reaction.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aderack wrote:
Depends on context. Generally normal, though. The less abstraction the better!

See, that's the thing, it doesn't feel like "abstraction"... I've been able to think about why inverted feels "right", but in practice, I just start looking around in a game, realizing I'm looking up when I mean to look down, and then start looking for the controller menu.

And I was surprised when I first realized that not everyone had the same instinct I did...
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use normal in some games because when I push up on the stick I want the crosshairs to go up and vice versa. Flight games are the other way around. I don't know why this is, but it is.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it is actually "looking" in a 3D environment then I need to have it inverted. My brain is just wired that way and I can't seem to aim if that's not the case. It's nice that in the 360 I can set that option so that everygame uses it.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aderack wrote:
ee_emm_ecks wrote:
what difficulty do you play on the most lol

Easy?

Fun how you can set these defaults on the 360.


Yeah, I thought that was so cool.

I just don't see how this boils down to anything more than preference. Maybe I'm an ignorant crank.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ee_emm_ecks wrote:
aderack wrote:
ee_emm_ecks wrote:
what difficulty do you play on the most lol

Easy?
Fun how you can set these defaults on the 360.

Yeah, I thought that was so cool.

Heh, I never noticed, and kept to setting things on a per-game basis.
Sometimes consoles having their own OS and doing things even without a game (beyond snail maze) seems weird to me. I guess it was the PSX acting as a CD player that first made me notice it.
Quote:

I just don't see how this boils down to anything more than preference.

Like I tried to explain, I find the reasons behind the preference compelling. I don't think anyone consciously thinks "well I prefer that if I push the joystick up the view point moves down", but because of the mapping (among virtual presence, hand, eye, and brain) they have or haven't made, that's the only way it will feel right.

I have lots of goofball theories about seemingly arbitrary preferences in games; that P2 might be at a disadvantage in split screen games with a horizontal split, because they might get distracted by the other players view near the view of "what's ahead" (this is one of my weaker ideas), that things suddenly looming on the left side of the screen are more startling on the right, and Mario Kart DD design reflects this (and that it might have something to do with "handedness", so my lefty buddy finds some of the mirror mode levels easier), that incidental sound effects do matter in a game like "Tetris Attack" so the choice of avatar actually makes a difference, a bit.

Some of these theories are dumb, some ok, and some could actually be small echoes of cognitive science.
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Maybe I'm an ignorant crank.

You seem to prefer making fun of things you don't get or that look trite at first glance rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt, and then pretend you're doing sites and people a favor by stirring up the pot, and/or that other shtick about "helping" people by making sure they're self confident enough to ignore people being douches on message boards, which is a fundamental misthink about how social places like this one work.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:

Quote:
Maybe I'm an ignorant crank.

You seem to prefer making fun of things you don't get or that look trite at first glance rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt, and then pretend you're doing sites and people a favor by stirring up the pot, and/or that other shtick about "helping" people by making sure they're self confident enough to ignore people being douches on message boards, which is a fundamental misthink about how social places like this one work.


I don't give them the benefit of the doubt because I've been around you wankers since 2003. If you can't ignore people you dislike or hate then you are missing out on a huge life skill and you're going to have to learn the hard way (coming to blows at times, even). I don't care if you think I'm being self-righteous or acting like a Dr. Phil figure who thinks he knows better than you. I do, but I don't care how you regard me when I say that.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:

I have lots of goofball theories about seemingly arbitrary preferences in games; that P2 might be at a disadvantage in split screen games with a horizontal split, because they might get distracted by the other players view near the view of "what's ahead" (this is one of my weaker ideas), that things suddenly looming on the left side of the screen are more startling on the right, and Mario Kart DD design reflects this (and that it might have something to do with "handedness", so my lefty buddy finds some of the mirror mode levels easier), that incidental sound effects do matter in a game like "Tetris Attack" so the choice of avatar actually makes a difference, a bit.


Right. And that sort of mental exercise is better left for actually playing the games.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ee_emm_ecks wrote:
I don't give them the benefit of the doubt because I've been around you wankers since 2003. If you can't ignore people you dislike or hate then you are missing out on a huge life skill and you're going to have to learn the hard way (coming to blows at times, even). I don't care if you think I'm being self-righteous or acting like a Dr. Phil figure who thinks he knows better than you. I do, but I don't care how you regard me when I say that.

Heh heh heh heh heh he said "wankers"
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
ee_emm_ecks wrote:
I don't give them the benefit of the doubt because I've been around you wankers since 2003. If you can't ignore people you dislike or hate then you are missing out on a huge life skill and you're going to have to learn the hard way (coming to blows at times, even). I don't care if you think I'm being self-righteous or acting like a Dr. Phil figure who thinks he knows better than you. I do, but I don't care how you regard me when I say that.

Heh heh heh heh heh he said "wankers"


now you're on the trolley
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh heh heh heh, he said "troll".

Anyway.

I wonder if mouselook users are more likely to use "normal", since the targetting is a bit more akin to shoving a cursor around, and it not physically mapping to the characters head as easily.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
Heh heh heh heh, he said "troll".

Anyway.

I wonder if mouselook users are more likely to use "normal", since the targetting is a bit more akin to shoving a cursor around, and it not physically mapping to the characters head as easily.


Troll and trolley are different, buttmunch.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
Heh heh heh heh, he said "troll".

Anyway.

I wonder if mouselook users are more likely to use "normal", since the targetting is a bit more akin to shoving a cursor around, and it not physically mapping to the characters head as easily.
I use a track ball instead of a mouse (makes the hand hurt less) and inverted is what I always do.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cossix wrote:
I use normal in some games because when I push up on the stick I want the crosshairs to go up and vice versa. Flight games are the other way around. I don't know why this is, but it is.

Flight games are that way because that's how you fly a plane unless you are piloting that plane in that episode of Rocky and Bullwinkle where it had inverse inversed controls causing you to push the stick forwards instead of pulling it to gain altitude seconds before it crashed into the ocean. But that's a cartoon and not real life so you can choose to ignore all of that if you want.

I use "normal" controls in console first person shooters since that's the way I do it on the PC so it makes the most sense to me. Although sometimes I feel more comfortable inversing the Y-Axis which makes it a bit difficult to change back as I tend to get used to that so when I do change back I still try to control like it's inversed, which gets rather frustrating. Going back to the computer helps me readjust instantly though so perhaps it's a matter of input devices rather than control settings.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use inverted Y-Axis for FPS games and for 3rd person games. As for the X-axis I go back and forth depending on the camera placement. If it feels like I'm controlling a camera I usually use inverted, but if it feels like I'm controlling the weapon in the person's arms I use standard. It's strange!

-Wes
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can never remember what I like, and usually just stick with whatever feels right for that game. I'd like to say that I use normal for first-person games and inverted for third-person, but I don't think I'm that organised. In theory, it's just a question of perspective... if it's first person, then I'm controlling my own face (so looking up is looking up), but if it's third person then I'm sort of standing behind them and pushing their whole head (so pushing up on the back of the head makes them look down).

But usually, I think my brain ends up recalibrating itself to cope with whatever the game defaults to. I'll play something like Hitman and get used to that, and then I'll play Phoenix Wright and not have to deal with it, and then I'll try Earth Defence Force and I'll just take whatever they give me. It's only when I have to jump straight from one to the other, when I'm not expecting it, that I get problems.

It's one nice thing about Halo. How they calibrate it based on whatever feels right at the start of the game, etc.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Normal in FPSs and Inverted in flight sims. I'd be interested to see what correlations in terms of spatial awareness there are between people who always have one choice or the other, as well as with the people who pick either. Of course, that's the kind of study that would be brutually hard to break down in terms of isolating variables.

In a related note, I learned today that because of the nature of reflecting light, the eyes are actually sending an upside-down image to the brain. This image is then reversed neurologically. The neat thing is that it takes the brain 12-24 hours to make this change, so newborn babies will see things upside down for a short period of time and this continues unchanged as we age, so if you wear glasses that turn everything upside down, your brain will eventually adjust and reverse the image again.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratchmonkey wrote:
In a related note, I learned today that because of the nature of reflecting light, the eyes are actually sending an upside-down image to the brain. This image is then reversed neurologically. The neat thing is that it takes the brain 12-24 hours to make this change, so newborn babies will see things upside down for a short period of time and this continues unchanged as we age, so if you wear glasses that turn everything upside down, your brain will eventually adjust and reverse the image again.

Yeah! I've heard that-- I heard that people will make the upsidedown adjustment, but can't adapt to "photo negative" images, and it's a brutal way for the test subject to live.

Games magazine once put a negative image picture of I think Barbara Bush on its cover, and you could NOT figure out who it was.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
Scratchmonkey wrote:
In a related note, I learned today that because of the nature of reflecting light, the eyes are actually sending an upside-down image to the brain. This image is then reversed neurologically. The neat thing is that it takes the brain 12-24 hours to make this change, so newborn babies will see things upside down for a short period of time and this continues unchanged as we age, so if you wear glasses that turn everything upside down, your brain will eventually adjust and reverse the image again.

Yeah! I've heard that-- I heard that people will make the upsidedown adjustment, but can't adapt to "photo negative" images, and it's a brutal way for the test subject to live.

Games magazine once put a negative image picture of I think Barbara Bush on its cover, and you could NOT figure out who it was.


That makes my head hurt just thinking about it
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not nice.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i strictly use inverted.

seems more organic. I pull my head back to look up, after all.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

inverted in everything- First and third person, flight sims and rail shooters, stick and mouse.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had to think way too much about this lately. Ever since mouselook was implemented in first person shooters on the PC I've been using inverted controls for the Y-axis. This trend continued on the Gamecube and PS2 in third person games(I still only play FPSes on the PC), but it wasn't until I bought a PS3 that I played a third person dual-analog game. I was kind of surprised that neither Warhawk, Uncharted, or Armored Core 4 felt right unless I also inverted the X-axis(except for the planes and turrets in Warhawk, where I keep the X-axis normal). It looks like I'm wired the same way as Wes because I also think it depends on whether I feel like I'm controlling the camera or the avatar.

So, everything was great until I tried to play a PS2 armored core game which doesn't allow X-axis inversion. I spent a few hours yesterday retraining myself in armored core(both PS2 and PS3) and luckily everything seems ok. But warhawk still doesn't feel right without inverting the X-axis. I guess the camera is just too far away from the avatar to make the mental switch. Plus there are times, like when climbing a ladder, where the right stick ONLY controls the camera.

I almost gave up and switched everything to normal, hoping I could focus only on the cursor. I think I'm going to try to play all games with a normal X-axis first from now on though. Hopefully there aren't too many Warhawks out there that will give me trouble.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i lied. in Morrowind I can't stand having my mouse inverted for reasons I can't understand.

inverse axis in 99% of everything I play.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, now that I think about it, inverted except for Rez.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to play inverted for the longest time, then recently switched to normal and haven't gone back. I don't know why, but there it is.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm strictly inverted when using analog sticks, but prefer normal for mouse and stylus control. And when using analog sticks, I typically make little twitch movements to aim.

Mr. Mechanical wrote:
I used to play inverted for the longest time, then recently switched to normal and haven't gone back. I don't know why, but there it is.


I remember you posting about how you're becoming more of a "mainstream" gamer on SB. It could be a subtle adjustment made towards that end. Normal seems to be the current trend, as it's the default in games now-a-days. It's also more popular amongst the less "old-school" gamers I know.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's see if this works:

Normal: eye-look
Inverted: head-look
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, that's about it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aderack wrote:
Let's see if this works:

Normal: eye-look
Inverted: head-look


Yeah. Even in real life, if I look upward I don't think of it as tilting my head back, I'm pointing my eyes/face upward. So the appeal of inverted is completely lost on me unless I'm controlling an aircraft.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

invert invert invert invert invert

my brain can't handle it any other way
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aderack
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am the solvator!
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simplicio
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

squidlarkin wrote:
aderack wrote:
Let's see if this works:

Normal: eye-look
Inverted: head-look


Yeah. Even in real life, if I look upward I don't think of it as tilting my head back, I'm pointing my eyes/face upward. So the appeal of inverted is completely lost on me unless I'm controlling an aircraft.


So the question is then whether you're primarily moving the cursor/crosshair or the entire screen. I guess I spent enough time with the latter (CS, for one) to fully acclimate to inversion in all first and third person forms.
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aderack
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, not the whole question. That's an element of it. There's also an element of tracking and focus. And a good deal of interpretation.

I think we're getting somewhere, though. You raise a good question. What translates as eye movement, and what translates as head movement, and why?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think FPS's are more geared towards head movement, or really body movement in general, as opposed to eye movement, since you're manipulating the gun as well as your perspective. I think of it as though the analog stick is on the character's back with the broad part of it being perpendicular to the end of the gun. Well, for the Y-axis at least. Inverting X to make that image completely accurate would be a bit too funky for me,
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aderack
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But what of the crosshairs? If you're moving that around the screen, surely that's more a function of eye movement?

I think when one views the game on an interface level -- slicing the environment into 2D planes according to the current view on the TV -- the tendency is more toward eye movement. At least, this is true for me. if I want to aim at something a bit higher on the screen, I move the crosshairs up. When movement (or the interpretation thereof) is more physical or intuitive, perhaps head movement is more natural? (You see something above you, you reorient your imaginary body to face it.)

In a case like this, you see different things as abstractions depending on your means of interpreting the game. If you're looking at the game as logical input and output, based on the TV display (eyes), a reversed Y axis seems like a bizarre conceptual complication. Up should move the cursor up, right? If you're imagining a physical analog between the controls and your own body movement (head), normal mapping seems like an intrusion of conscious interface into what should be intuitive.

Does this sound about right?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is probably on track.
Another nuance: if you are mapping to the plane of the screen, it's kind of like you're holding the joypad vertically, ie with the joystick pointing at you, so up is up, as opposed to forward is up.

Inverts a more thinking of a mapping that happens to be like holding the controller flat, so the stick is parallel with gravity, and the rest flows from there.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would probably be useful to bring up the change in control from the first two Metroid Prime games to the third one. Using the wiimote, it's normal rather than inverted.

I think that's probably bad for the game. It makes you feel like you're controlling a remote control rather than controlling a character.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

helicopterp wrote:
It would probably be useful to bring up the change in control from the first two Metroid Prime games to the third one. Using the wiimote, it's normal rather than inverted.

I think that's probably bad for the game. It makes you feel like you're controlling a remote control rather than controlling a character.

I haven't played since the first Prime, but is holding a Wiimote that much different than having a blaster cannon at the end of your arm? It seems like the mapping would be pretty decent.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it possible to set invert for the wiimote? And if so, would anyone do it? I don't think I ever would.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sarsamis wrote:
Is it possible to set invert for the wiimote? And if so, would anyone do it? I don't think I ever would.

Ugh, loud blinking .sig!
Anyway--
In "laserpointer" mode, yeah, invert would seem a bit perverse.
(I do note that the accuracy isn't enough to do a "pure" lightgun game, you almost always need an onscreen crosshairs, like with Link's Crossbow Training.)

Getting back to the tie-in with "cockpit" style control, which may influence invert options even in FPSes...Wii-motes are pretty versatile. I really hope (there might already be, dunno) that flight sim-ish games have modes where you hold the Wii-mote upright like a flight stick... Monkey Ball's submarine game used this style control to great effect, it really felt immersive. The other option would be to hold the Wii-mote flat, so that it modeled the body of an airplane... kind of like Excite Truck, but lengthwise. (Or come to think of it regular Excite Truck style controls for a flying game might work well too)

I think you see more emphasis on "pointer" style control with "shake" detection at the cost of Excite Truck-esque gyroscopic work, maybe because the latter works better with both hands.

PS I guess I should add... I dunno, I'm no official representative for this site, just a medium-time member, but it seems that unlike SB animated or oversized .sigs aren't much in use here. I dunno if any one else will gripe, but it's a little jarring to see -- but I dig the feedback you were giving to various threads so I hope this isn't taken as too much meddling net-coppery...
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn, I rather liked my new sig :/

I think I'll just go sig imageless for now
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sarsamis wrote:
Damn, I rather liked my new sig :/

I think I'll just go sig imageless for now

What's it from?

(I don't mean to be quite as Nanny-ish as I might be sounding, it's a couple things... I made a nifty-ish sig w/ 2600 characters running... AtariAge gently reminded me that animated .sigs were against the rules (though they thought it was neat, and relatively subtle), it seemed to fit right in at SB, but here I elected to not use it though some people found it pleasing. (And then Harveyjames made it into a beautiful nightmare but that's a different story)
You know, some of this might be because I misread some dates on the Introduce Yourself thread...
Anyway, a number of people find this place a pleasant alternative or addition to SB, but I think in the back of some people's mind is the idea that it not become another SB.
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