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the very thorough crawl thread
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dhex
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fwiw, crawl is the only roguelike i've ever been able to get into.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you would be going from the most ridiculously contrived and overblown of the bigger roguelikes to the most straightfoward and logical. if you can wrap your head around adom learning crawl should be no problem, and you'll be a better person for it.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In that case, I'll go right ahead.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I went from Angband to Crawl and it was no problem, especially if you get the graphical version. I can see why Crawl is probably better, even if I don't like it as much.
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Shapermc
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratchmonkey wrote:
Yeah, I went from Angband to Crawl and it was no problem, especially if you get the graphical version. I can see why Crawl is probably better, even if I don't like it as much.

Yeah, but don't you like all that convoluted stuff? I mean, you love Dwarf Fortress.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Angband is pretty straightforward, really. The only real intricacy is with combat, because you have to be a lot more careful than in many other roguelikes (due to the plethora of status attacks and equipment randomization). And I mainly like it because I'm used to it -- I started playing it around 1992, so there's a huge comfort level.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First death: Level 5 Troll Fighter killed on dungeon level 3 by a yak.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Intentionally Wrong wrote:
First death: Level 5 Troll Fighter killed on dungeon level 3 by a yak.

Those damned yaks!
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I put together a crappy race-class chart this morning, because I love cross-referencing tables. I don't suppose anybody has a better one?
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about "better" but if you scroll back through this thread you'll find links to many things like it (and ones that are more detailed but considered spoilers). I think I posted something like this a while ago.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

there isn't a really good chart of race and class compatability, that i've seen. fit this on a single screen - maybe as a color-coded image file - and we'll be talkin'!
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

died of starvation while fighting a hunger ghost.

how embarassing!
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, geez. I see what you mean about orc priests being hell on low-level characters. My 5th level merfolk elementalist had just killed Jessica, so I thought I must be doing well.

> The orc priest utters an invocation.
> Something smites you!
> * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
> As you read the scroll, it crumbles to dust.
> You feel strangely unstable.
> The orc priest prays.
> The orc priest's eyes start to glow.
> The orc priest utters an invocation.
> Something smites you!
> You die...
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got to level 5 yesterday! Then a smoke demon decided to cover me in liquid flames. Liquid flames really suck!

I've been using a Minataur Chaos Knight in the service of Xom. It's been fun.
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so i've finally picked up the DS version after trying it a few weeks ago and being too daunted by the controls (the hotkey setup, while nice, is a bit more obtuse initially and i hadn't touched the PC version at all). this game is fabulous for toilet play. and makes me resent games that save and let you load that savegame without clearing it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bump because I finally got the X11 version working and hell yes. Thanks nana (b'_')b
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, on your Intel Mac? (I can get it to run on a PPC)

But . . . HOW?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On my G4.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Koyetay wrote:
Liquid flames really suck!


Unless you're the one throwing them around. Thanks largely to that spell, my Deep Elf Flame Elementalist made it to level 11 (after surviving my first trip to the Abyss, at a really low level, none the worse for wear and getting a nice pair of horns out of it). Then I found a chesscock of my very own!

Should've reread Shaper's post at that point, because then I might've been more careful. So much loot, so many new monsters to set aflame! But they were getting meaner as I delved deeper. Got hit a couple times by something invisible, saw a storm dragon, panicked. Read a teleport scroll and found myself even further in. Wound up next to a stone giant, stepped back and took a boulder to the face. I'd lasted exactly 15000 turns.

Why haven't I been playing this game? So much better than nethack.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been trying to steer away from beginning combinations, while maybe not delving into spell-casting quite yet. To that end, i've been either using demonspawn or draconian chaos knights following xom. They don't really have the guaranteed quickstart of purer fighters, but if you can keep them alive long enough for their mutations to kick in, they start getting pretty formidable–with demonspawn drawing more varied, but sometimes more advantageous mutations (blink at will fuck yes) and draconians getting breath weapons and AC bonuses in the form of scales. I like xom, because if nothing else, he can certainly make your run less boring.

My other experiment has been with merfolk gladiators. Merfolk, it turns out, gain polearm proficiency twice as fast as humans, so a fighter with a pole weapon will probably end up with a proficiency of eight or higher by level 5. To this end I've been picking gladiators, simply to control my starting equipment loadout better. What does "the X has been punctured!" mean? This seems to be the primary difference between tridents and spears, but I don't really understand it.

Best death was when I accidently turned one of my ghosts (a merfolk fighter with a venomous weapon) invisible, panicked, turned myself invisible and got trapped in a hallway by a pack of jackals when I tried to run.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this will be something someday, i guess.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played Ragnarok/Valhalla and liked it well enough, so reading this thread I thought I would try this game. So far it seems like this game is 90% luck, especially during the begining.

I was doing good one run, or so it seemed. Chaos/Death knight with a +2/+3 sword, 10 ac, 11 evade, and the absord life while dealing damage attack. I died in two hits at full life and mana from an ogre, which I have slayed easily with weaker melee characters...

I've had a level 5 fighter killed by a rat as well. I did have only 15hp or so, and kept hitting even as I was down to a few hp. Never thought I would die to a rat...

And even worse, when you do run into strong creatures, it seems like you are fucked. Running will get you killed, and I rarely have enough blink/teleport/fear scrolls, invis/speed/etch potions to get away. Hell, I rarely get far enough to identify a fraction of those before Sigurd, Zork(?), Jessica, Centaurs, and an army of ogres come after me. I always seem to run into a wall of creatures beyond my abilities to kill with no way to go around them or ways to find little creatures to keep killing to raise my levels.

So after all that bitching, how the hell does anyone get very far? I scour every tile of every level, unless I run into something I can not kill, and I still rarely ever get good enough gear/kill enough creatures, to not be killed the instant I go down a staircase.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm such a whiner. Only two posts and both of them are whining about this game.

Gone through a hundred or more characters. I always die the same way. I turn a corner, go down stairs, open a door, or somehow enter and reveal an area. I then meet a named mob, a powerful mob, or a horde of mobs.

My only choices are flee or fight. Fighting is suicide and running seems pointless unless you have some sort of item like blink/teleport/invisibility. Further more, I rarely have those items on my character, identified, early in the game.

Whats a good starting strategy? I've noticed some times running over old ground, I would find new mobs. Do they regen or is it a set number per floor and I just missed them the first time around?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

when the odds are against you, run. throw rocks and darts. explore every level thoroughly before going on. identify items once you've explored the whole floor. use shift-5 to recover your hp between fights. play as a dwarf or minotaur fighter.

i'm working on a beginner's guide to crawl but it won't be finished for a week at the very least. you can pick up tips by reading through the thread, if you havn't already.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is how the majority of my games go. It is kind of funny in way.

I explore the entire first floor. Going down one staircase I see ilyb (something like that), and two kobolds and a bat. I pick off the bat and go up the stairs. Still level 1 by the way. I'm far enough from the others that no one follows. I then take the only other stairway on the level down. I am spotted by Terance, 1 goblin, 1 kobold, and a snake. Terrance is close, and I know the other stairs are death, so as always, I am forced to make my stand. I pick off the kobold and start on a goblin. With the kobolds death I make level 2!

Retreating up the stairs Terance follows. I then spend the next few thousand turns, about 30 minutes in real time, running in circles, tricking Terance to go over a trap. When my hitpoints are high enough I attack. His attacks hit for about 15 hp. I have 18 hp. So I attack until he hits me then run in a circle tricking him to go over the trap. When I get hungry and my hp are high enough, I eat. And so this repeats for a long time. I kill several monsters that wander by if my hp are high enough or else they join the conga line to be dealt with when I am ready. My attacks rarely do damage to Terance, but between the crappy dart trap and myself, and a hell of a lot of time, I finally kill him. I get some gear and his wand which I know teleports because he started using it on himself when he was almost dead.

I wander around using 's' as I wait for my hp to regen to full. I then go down the staircase. As soon as I arrive I am attacked. It appears a new kobold has also shown up. I decide to go up the stairs as I have found only one or two mobs will follow when I do that. Which is better than 4. From going down and returning up, I have taken damage and am at 14 hp. On top, I also get poisoned. The snake and goblin have followed. Nothing scary, but I know what luck in this game is like. I use the wand of teleportation on myself and start running. By the time the wand kicks in I have 11 hp.

I drink the only potion I have. It is water apparently. I spend my next few turns quickly wandering around avoiding the goblin and snake looking for potions I might have missed until I die.

I beat Terance, a named mob that has killed much higher level characters of mine (keeping in mind, level 7 is my record) at level 2. I completely explored the first floor and was unable to get past level 1, or get a single healing potion... or any potions at all really. I then was slowly killed by poison at 10 hp.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

can i ask what race and class you're playing?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, you got me.

I play the fragile elves too often. I figure if I can get past a certain level then the fact they learn many different skills easily, combined with one of the highest stat granting classes, I could make them very powerful. They just have really really (really) low hp. Deep/high elf crusader/death knight/chaos knights seem to be the ones I play the most. I try enchanter when I feel really masochistic.

I still alternate between the other races and classes. No matter the race/class I play, I still run into the same issue I mentioned above. It seems to me, when you do run into those situations, you need some powerful ranged attack or you are dead, which is why I have been trying casters and hybrids more.

My best character got to the part before the orcish mines. The only reason I got so far was I found a wand of disintegration, which I used to killl Sigmund, who then gave me an awesome robe and another powerful wand, which allowed me to really take off. Did okay until an eyeball, I think, made me glow and mutate horribly several times, cumulating in a trip to the abyss. I died when I switched my +3/+2 sabre of protection(I use that one to explore) with my +3 hand axe of distortion, which I used to attack. Apparently, when you rewield weapons of distortion, it damages you. Unless that was a side affect of my mutation that made me randomly port around.

What do I do with these gods? Sometimes I pray and sometimes I sacrifice things to their alters, but I have yet to have it do anything. If I have a god that likes it when I kill should I pray before each creature I kill?
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

try playing a dwarf or minotaur fighter. once you've gotten the basics of survival in the dungeon, then try the more challenging classes. what god you choose depends on what kind of character you're playing - for a fighter, try trog or okawaru. if you want an introduction to religion, try playing a berserker - they start as followers of trog. kill while praying to gain favor from trog, and butcher corpses while praying to sacrifice the bodies.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is online now. it's an illustrated beginner's guide to crawl, or an attempt at one. hopefully it's helpful to someone.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was entertained. Wasn't much that was new to me though.

I still chalk my games up to a lot of bad luck. I find it is rather rare to get 3 levels on the first floor (or first two floors in really unfortunate games).

I'm surprised snakes are a safe food source. I never even tried eating them since they are poisonous.

How common are secret doors and the like? Or is there even a way to awnser that? I rarely search a square more than once but there have been times where I had a feeling something was there and searched once and found nothing.

If you get enchant weapon/armor scrolls and you only have basic gear/stuff you started out with, do you still use the scroll or wait for a better item?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, i was surprised about the snakes, and the fact that shift+5 searches (though i still can't for the life of me figure out how to key in shift+5 in dscrawl). thanks, dess!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In ADOM, there aren't any corridors that dead-end, so shifting has been second-nature for me. On the other hand, my scroll/potion research was haphazard at best, so I feel better prepared for my next game.

The banner I'm looking at now is from Princess Tomato and the Salad Kingdom, isn't it?

(TALK | TAKE | USE . . . PRAISE | DUMP | ITEM)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

=^.^= wrote:
I'm surprised snakes are a safe food source. I never even tried eating them since they are poisonous.


this is a common misconception!

secret doors are usually in fairly obvious locations - this isn't nethack, where every room is guaranteed to have like seven. if an area seems suspiciously small or dead-ends, try searching. or read a scroll of magic mapping.

as for enchant scrolls, i'd rather try and make my own better item than wait for one to turn up. mostly because aside from artifacts, there's not really "better" armor - all armor has its trade-offs. a vanilla robe only offers a single armor point, but it has little effect on your evasion (the likelihood an attack will hit you). a suit of plate mail provides a lot of armor points, but drastically decreases evasion. usually i want to take a high-evasion piece of armor and enchant it so it provides more armor points, and try and collect a cloak, gloves and footware to supplement it. as for weapons, i try to decide on what weapon i plan on using as early as possible.

i remember trying like crazy to find a shift-5 function in dscrawl, but i don't remember if i ever succeeded.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there any way to make use of magic-relevant items as a non-magic using character? I came across a Staff of Power as a minotaur chaos knight. This seems like the sort of situation where the inability to sell items is more a curse than a blessing.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

with crawl, one must accept that this world is a burning house. we do not own the staff of power any more than we own ourselves.

you get used to being punched in the fucking taint by this game after a while. specialize in swords? be prepared to pass up a dozen or so awesome axes.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had my best run in Crawl last weekend. With a Troll Berserker I ended up reaching the 10th floor of the dungeon.

Unfortunately that floor was a completely open circle and upon walking down a few steps I was assaulted by a herd of yaks and centaurs.

I stood no chance. I was being hit from miles away

I had a ton of good equipment too. Too bad as a troll I can only really use my claws and animal skins.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex wrote:
with crawl, one must accept that this world is a burning house. we do not own the staff of power any more than we own ourselves.

I think I found the back quote for issue nine.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trolls are an easy way to get a tour of the dungeon but they're boring characters in the long run.

and anyone can use magical items. it's just a question of whether it's really worth investing in raising the skill. if you read enough scrolls any character will eventually gain the ability to memorize and cast spells from magic books. and there are also invocations from gods.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
trolls are an easy way to get a tour of the dungeon but they're boring characters in the long run.


Really they are a bit dry. It was a random character that was generated. Since my choices were so limited I didn't have to worry about much. Though I did lose some of the fun since I kept finding a lot of fun equipment I couldn't wear.

I would try a Naga Assassin, but I am terrible at sneaking up on creatures

One interesting thing I found was a Bone Lantern. I don't know what it does, but it made the screen a grainy black and white.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm progressively getting better at dscrawl (this game is so so so good my goodness), but there's a few things i still just don't understand:

one: what's up with the screen where you can apparently assign skill points? i don't get it.

two: how do you invoke religious abilities?

i was doing centaur crusaders for a while, because i like the idea of being able to haste myself, except when i finally managed to level up high enough to do so (after like two weeks of five failed games per day), my int was apparently not nearly high enough to learn the spell and i decided i'd had enough of fightermages right there. so i'm trying centaur chaos knights right now. and this game is terrific.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm more into Crawl right now than I've been into any game since... Shiren, come to think of it. I upgraded to play Oblivion but Crawl's been getting all my time. My last character made it to level 20 and found two runes! Those battles were epic.

Ethos: your skill points are assigned automatically through use, but you can use that screen to toggle which ones are actively being trained. So if say you don't want your constant hacking and slashing to get in the way of your magical studies, toggle off your weapon skill for a while. And the hotkey "a" is used to (a)ctivate your (a)bilities.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I stumbled on this thread randomly searching on... well, things to do to get around deep water in Crawl, since I found an underground river on a recent run (troll berserker, whenever I get lazy I roll one) and couldn't really do anything to get past it.

Just wanted to say you guys inspired me to roll as a demonspawn chaos knight of Makhleb, and to register - just for this thread. Wink

So far he's gotten some wicked sweet mutations. Double-developed scaly hide at level 3 or 4, and then triple developed the "area sense" mutation, which I haven't quite figured out what is good for yet. I'm guessing I'm ... slightly more aware of my surroundings or something.

I usually go Xom but I think I've been won over. No more... dropping my weapon for it to become a powerful mimic and rape me for ages, or any of that.

My most successful ever was a demigod stalker, incidentally. It's a pretty sweet combo, since demigods are natural fighters and as a stalker you begin with a really good practice spellbook. You level a bit slower, but are badass enough to compensate for it and the stalker's stealth really helps out in early levels. (For me, fighting and spellcasting surpassed stealth really early so it became less about sneaking and more about kicking ass everywhere. The occasional "completely unaware" always gets my heart singing.) Not getting a religion really isn't an issue when, y'know, you're a freaking demigod.

Once Finder the Stabber meets his end, I'll probably be rolling a merfolk of some variety. Haven't played any hardcore mages yet, except for a small legion of mummy necromancers that can never make it past level 3.

Also: How do I use those scrolls of recharging? Do I wield the wand and then read the scroll? Because it's not prompting me to pick a wand when I read the scroll, and it's not blanket-affecting my wands. If Int's an issue then my troll was totally up a creek, but my future characters should be okay (especially my next demigod).
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dhex
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Also: How do I use those scrolls of recharging? Do I wield the wand and then read the scroll?


that is exactly what you do.

and welcome!
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Shapermc
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sediment wrote:
Haven't played any hardcore mages yet, except for a small legion of mummy necromancers that can never make it past level 3.

I recommend starting with an Earth Elementalist is you're going to give it a shot. They have one spell much later on that is supposivly very powerful making it balance out how weak they are in general. The only problem with playing an Earth Elementalist is that you probably won't make it much further than level 2 unless you find some rocks.

And welcome.
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sediment
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I'm discovering that. Sandblast isn't that great without those rocks on hand...

Good thing I lived long enough to learn stoneskin. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do I, er, use magic staves?

I've tried wielding and (E)voking them, and nothing seems to happen. Zapping doesn't seem to work either. Do I just hold it and beat things?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure the elemental ones can be slightly useful for beating things with, but the main point of staves is the passive boost to your casting and/or resistances when you're wielding them. Rods, on the other hand, can be (E)voked to cast spells without failing, which is pretty sweet.

Also, use the (v) command whenever you're not sure what an item does or how to use it. You won't be satisfied every time, but it's a lot more helpful than you might expect.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i just got to level 8, and floor 9! died to an axe trap while running away, of all things =(

that was by far my best run ever!! congratulations, flash the centaur reaver!

i was about to go into the orcish mines on the eighth floor, but a swarm of killer bees turned up so i had to get the hell out of there ASAP.

man though, crawl. i felt like i had finally hit some kind of nice safe plateau for all of eight seconds on floor six, and then nope, we're going to throw a couple trolls at you.

i too cannot figure out how to recharge wands for the life of me. they can't be wielded, at least not in dscrawl - could this be a bug?

i was a follower of okawaru, but only for a short time; i can't yet conceive of being able to make any kind of headway with religion when playing any class apart from a chaos knight, and i stopped playing chaos knights because i got tired of having to pray constantly from the minute i started the game.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ethoscapade wrote:
i too cannot figure out how to recharge wands for the life of me. they can't be wielded, at least not in dscrawl - could this be a bug?


did you try entering the letter of the wand when prompted, regardless of whether the game let you pick it off a menu? you should be able to wield about any object - if dscrawl doesn't let you, it's definitely a bug.

i wish i could get dscrawl to save.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a feeling staves amplified, but couldn't test it as the character a) sucked at magic and b) didn't have any cold spells on tap.

Officially my most successful character roughly halfway through his career, dealing with an orc den the only way he knew how: POSSE


Bought it two floors later, to a yellow wasp. YASD.


Every time I get this one, I giggle. I burn through every scroll of random uselessness soon as I get it, hoping for butterflies.

Current project: Demonspawn stalker, who'll worship Makhleb soon as I can get far enough to enter the Ecumenical Temple. I keep having really rough starts, and am starting to think this combo might be cursed.
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