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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:56 am Post subject: Games are embarrasing when compared to other mediums. |
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On wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twist_ending
Take a look at all the examples cited here for other mediums. Almost all classics, almost all moments that changed their medium.
Then look at videogames.
They mention the recent Sonic game. And Zelda.
I mean, Planescape isn't even on here.
Anyway, I was just reading the article and thought it was amusing. Not really trying to say anything, here. I should go to bed but I'm too sick to sleep. _________________
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:18 am Post subject: |
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isn't this more of a wikipedia issue though?
aren't most games twist ending though? i'm hard pressed to think of a game that doesn't have some grand final betrayal or a ha moment. _________________
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Ethoscapade .
Joined: 30 Oct 2005 Posts: 276
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:44 am Post subject: |
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yeah, i've got news for you, those film examples are definitely worse than the games. |
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Pijaibros .
Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 342 Location: Mistake by the Lake
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: |
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Also movies and books have a rich history of things to sort through. You take almost 100 years of cinema and centuries worth of literature, you can pick and choose what is the best and what is not. I can't imagine how much of both mediums is pure rubbish.
Just looking at what's out today should maybe lend a clue to just how much rubbish was sorted through for actual gems.
Videogames have only been around for 30-some years and didn't really do anything interesting until the crash of '83. At this point, the fans are just taking what they can get since we are desperate to be taken seriously as a medium. Instead of being the scapegoat for everything wrong with the children.
Last edited by Pijaibros on Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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player 2 .
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:56 am Post subject: |
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I was really hoping for something else from this thread. _________________ Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
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Pijaibros .
Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 342 Location: Mistake by the Lake
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:58 am Post subject: |
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What do you want?
Another "Are games Art?" thread.
Pfffft. |
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Mr Mustache .
Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 167 Location: Queens
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:03 am Post subject: |
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At this point it's possible to find individual games that are not embarrassing, but the "culture" is always embarrassing. _________________ Straight up |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: |
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ok so let's do something interesting:
why are so many people so desperate for the assurance from tastemakers and gatekeepers that they're not losers for playing games?
after a while it doesn't really appear to be that heavy a fixation on "why can't they make games that rock as hard as torment" or whatever so much as "why aren't we as cool as other largely unrelated art forms?"
also i really like that picture of that guy pointing. he looks totally fucked. _________________
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player 2 .
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: |
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There's a certain level of acceptance necessary to construct systems that allow games to be made for their artistic value as opposed to commercial value. You may or may not agree that this is valuable, but I am a supporter of game developers that create new and interesting things that may not be viable in today's industry but with a little nurturing and coddling could be hits.
Mostly I'm tired of the status quo of the game industry and want things to be shaken up. And tThere's a similar sentiment among independent film and music makers, too. I'm not saying that it's "right". More so just understandable. Or at least predictable? _________________ Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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things are shaking up, actually - it's just going in a casual games and unique controller options (some might call it gimmicky) direction, which is about as opposed to games as art as you can get. which for many will bear the fruit they desire. and for others not so much.
comparisons to other industries are not very handy for a number of reasons. one might as well ask why the supply chain for hot dogs is different than fresh produce and why ice cream is different than both of those. and the supply chain and creation issues, while closer to films than music, are still vastly different. and this goes double on the indie/amateur level. which may be part of the frustration, since your friend can start a band in his bedroom and his cousin can edit his movie down in between recording sessions. but folks who want some kind of explicit art in their games aren't as pleased with aftermarket game maker softwares and the like.
i mean, i asked several times after finishing torment why more games weren't written like that. short version: no one bought it. (addendum: interplay was run by fuckfaces) _________________
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | after a while it doesn't really appear to be that heavy a fixation on "why can't they make games that rock as hard as torment" or whatever so much as "why aren't we as cool as other largely unrelated art forms?" |
I've started looking at this question more and more recently. Mainly for the reason that the culture and audience is starting to come around more and more. I mean, hell, on Sunday my dad called because he was going to buy a Wii and wanted to make sure he was getting a good deal for a package.
I mean, if the number one Blockbuster Game right now is Gears of War, and the number one Blockbuster Movie is Transformers I'm damn glad that I'm backing games at the moment. --godtransformerswasawful--
Either way, when re-playing Silent Hill 2 I was thinking "this is really a great, and at times amazing game. Does the rest of the industry not know what happen here, or do the just ignore it because of it's good but not stellar sales?"
I'm honestly mostly curious at this point about why most gamers don't consider their medium an art form. Though I no longer care considering that Rockstar finally started to stand up for their games as "art," which is pretty much the catalyst that needed to happen for this kind of thinking. _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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Pijaibros .
Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 342 Location: Mistake by the Lake
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | (addendum: interplay was run by fuckfaces) |
This can be applied to nearly the entire games industry |
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Scratchmonkey .
Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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I see it as a combo of two things:
1) Games are largely adolescent power fantasies that are bought, surprisingly enough, by adolescents and people who wear dragon t-shirts and listen to EBM. Despite my vitriol regarding this subject, adolescent power fantasies can be pretty fun, so I'm not exactly tearing up about this.
2) The game industry is startingly unable to learn lessons from other industries becuase, uh, I dunno, we're special? I mean, the most important of these are basic business practices, this still applies pretty well to originality in game design.
Of course, the game industry is making more money and reaching a wider audience than it did in any of the various "golden eras", so what the hell. |
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | also i really like that picture of that guy pointing. he looks totally fucked. |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na2W38tLp_Q
Also, despite popular belief, Torment made a pretty decent profit. _________________
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ApM Admin Rockstar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1210 Location: Ottawa, ON
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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That stupid screeching cyborg zombie thing at the beginning of Space Quest IV makes a lot more sense, now. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Also, despite popular belief, Torment made a pretty decent profit. |
it sold pretty well for the type of game it was, sure.
400k units isn't bad. but it's also not enough.
most cult anythings don't do so well the first time around. _________________
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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400k is not bad at all, especially considering when it was released. _________________
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parkbench .
Joined: 02 Jul 2007 Posts: 145
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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guys i think it's just time. we're like human beings in that painful growing stage between fully intelligent creature and proto-human ape, where he was probably just realizing he could do more shit than he thought but he didn't know why. or something.
what i mean to say is that we're in that stage where we're all starting to stop the wave that we've been riding for awhile and look back, but it's still a little early. give it anoter decade or so and i bet you things will start changing. and i'm not even talking about ARE GAMES ART?! i'm talking about the medium having grown to have its own real magnum opuses (opi?) and have twist endings and history and such. |
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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parkbench did you ever know that you're my hero _________________
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dongle .
Joined: 25 Nov 2006 Posts: 290
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:34 am Post subject: |
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parkbench wrote: | i'm talking about the medium having grown to have its own real magnum opuses (opi?) and have twist endings and history and such. |
opera.
anyhow, maybe by then the medium will have grown to have more of its own criteria. movie soundtracks are marginal in the genre of music as a whole but we don't see the cinema scene getting penis-envy over it. why are we so concerned about the stories that games tell? simply because many games have the pretense of a strong narrative? and i'm not going to get into interaction as narrative or storytelling vs narrative.
not to say, either, that games can't tell stories; just that we shouldn't expect them all to do so. i will agree, however, that, taken by parts, many components of games are indeed embarrassing and i do experience gamer-shame (despite being a 'light gamer' by most accounts). |
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: |
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It's like games are stuck in the prog-rock era. Let's start making our own games! Spirit of 77, whoo!
It's a shame making games isn't as easy as learning three chords and starting a punk band. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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uh guys people do that already it's called super columbine massacre. it's just that they're not that much fun.
just like a lot of early punk was really fucking bad. a lot of any garage rock is generally really bad. check out laptop producers and chiptunes. most of it is fucking awful. most everything released sucks hard.
the better question is: why should games be exempt?
side question: why don't more people try to make games? (or if they do, why don't they follow through?) _________________
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Too much like hard work. I think with Punk there was really a sense that anyone could get up on stage and be in a band- but programming games is something that takes a lot of dedication. You have to be prepared to put a lot more into it than you might get out.
With punk rock, all you need is a human body and no shame!
Sure, most punk bands were rubbish, but I still love the idea of DIY culture. It's almost like whether they were any good or not is almost beyond the point. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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man that's basically the wikipedia problem in a nutshell.
isn't the issue that we don't need more bodies just milling about but actual quality?
perhaps there are several dozen issues milling about like unemployed youths in a local parking lot. _________________
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Harveyjames wrote: | Too much like hard work. I think with Punk there was really a sense that anyone could get up on stage and be in a band- but programming games is something that takes a lot of dedication. You have to be prepared to put a lot more into it than you might get out. |
Game Maker for the PC can be plug and play for anyone willing to take the time. Also mods for current games/engines don't take much effort. Then you have that InForm or what ever it is that makes writing text adventures about as difficult as writing an outline.
There's ways that require little to no programing knowledge. Some really great stuff comes out of those too (LaLaLand, Seiklus, Invader) _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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This must be something I'm really interested in because I'm having the exact same conversation over in selectbutton.com in the latest 'nintendo' thread. |
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ApM Admin Rockstar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1210 Location: Ottawa, ON
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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I think many would-be designers are stuck in the mindset of creating a bunch of one-off experiences (256 mind-bending levels!) rather than something that is mechanically interesting over multiple playthroughs. If people sat down as if they were designing a board game, I think we'd see a lot more people following through with their ideas. |
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Scratchmonkey .
Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | isn't the issue that we don't need more bodies just milling about but actual quality? |
I think the theory is that with more bodies, that you'll hit the jackpot every once in a while. That if there's more people making games, you'll get 19 bad games and 1 at least interesting idea. That sounds pretty good to me, even if the actual ratio winds up being way worse.
As for whether making a game is that much harder than making an album or writing a novel, I think that's true, it's kind of something that I'd like to verify for myself, I think I'm going to try at least to particpate in next year's Game Bakedown, for example, as well as thinking about whether I can actually make a game that I would want to play. |
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Also let's never forget that Super Mario Bros. was made by like 6 guys in over the course of one month, If that's not inspiring, I don't know what is! |
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ApM Admin Rockstar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1210 Location: Ottawa, ON
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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There's no way SMB was made in a month. That's crazy urban legend talk. I call shenanigans. E.T. took five weeks. Ghostbusters took six weeks.
Crayon Physics and The Amazing Flying Brothers were both done in under a week, though, so with modern tools, you don't have to be looking at a big time investment to produce something interesting and innovative. |
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah.
I'm looking for the thing where I read Mario 1 was completed in a month... I've read 3 months for mario 2 (japanese and US version?) and 1 month for pac man vs, though.
The thing about E.T. was that it was just one guy doing the whole thing. Super Mario Bros. had enough staff to require a director and an assistant director, so I can believe they had enough people to accomplish what they did within the timescale. Although, I'm fully prepared to be proven wrong on this.
I also read that Pikmin was made in about three months! Stranger things have happened! |
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ApM Admin Rockstar
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1210 Location: Ottawa, ON
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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All those games I listed are pretty great, though. |
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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and it is awesome ok _________________
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JamesE .
Joined: 27 Nov 2006 Posts: 168 Location: Straight Up, Straight Down
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | things are shaking up, actually - it's just going in a casual games and unique controller options (some might call it gimmicky) direction, which is about as opposed to games as art as you can get. which for many will bear the fruit they desire. and for others not so much. |
I gotta disagree with this, actually. Geometry Wars? Totally arty, in it's own little way, but casual as it gets. Tetris has a really powerful asthetic, and that shit goes on mobile phones.
I think a lot of the tension around the games=art scene is that, as a form, they run closer with boardgames and physical activities - Monopoly, rock climbing, football, tennis, these things are the DNA of videogames. Plenty of people think that football has and is an art unto itself, and Monopoly makes a few wry statements and has a really strong, attractive asthetic (provided you get a nice vanilla board and not Star Wars Edition or whatever). The tension was created midway through the Famicom era, when people got good enough to append little cutscenes or some nice music. Now you have a form of gaming (in the classical sense) that also allows for the addition of more traditional art fixtures like images or movies (cutscenes) or sound. In my opinion, a game is always stronger if it proritises the play element over the art element, but that doesn't mean people should slack off on the trimmings. Fast forward to now, and the tension inherent in what games as a form have become is fucking a few people up and making them ask silly things like "is this art" instead of "is this interesting". I actually think people should approach all forms like that, even painting (luv u Rrose Selavy).
Maybe it would be cool if someone made a very blank, spartan looking game with a killer ludological hook, as well as some way of quickly and easily skinning and scoring the asthetics as well as adding value triggered cutscenes/fmvs, then let the people who draw and make music do what they're best at.
I think there's a project in there for a whole series of skinnables, if any coders are interested. _________________
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JamesE .
Joined: 27 Nov 2006 Posts: 168 Location: Straight Up, Straight Down
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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(Did that come across coherently I've been burnt out at work the last month) _________________
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I agree. I think it's completely possible to make games that try and push the medium further without becoming being inaccessable.
Let's not keep saying 'arty' to vaguely define games we like though because then we'll have to start defining what it means and I'll have to put a bullet through my head. |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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JamesE wrote: | I gotta disagree with this, actually. Geometry Wars? Totally arty, in it's own little way, but casual as it gets. Tetris has a really powerful asthetic, and that shit goes on mobile phones. |
qix, and that's a game where the player creates the playfield by playing, which is a pretty strong "ludological hook". missile command, which is about nuclear devestation. _________________
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JamesE .
Joined: 27 Nov 2006 Posts: 168 Location: Straight Up, Straight Down
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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dessgeega wrote: | JamesE wrote: | I gotta disagree with this, actually. Geometry Wars? Totally arty, in it's own little way, but casual as it gets. Tetris has a really powerful asthetic, and that shit goes on mobile phones. |
qix, and that's a game where the player creates the playfield by playing, which is a pretty strong "ludological hook". missile command, which is about nuclear devestation. |
Yes, I've had Qix on my mind a lot this week. It's a lovely piece of op-art. _________________
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JamesE .
Joined: 27 Nov 2006 Posts: 168 Location: Straight Up, Straight Down
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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In #ic earlier tollmaster proposed a MUGEN for platformers/run n' guns. I think that would be a great idea. _________________
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table_and_chair .
Joined: 15 Jun 2007 Posts: 30 Location: mississippi
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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i hate to expound on a somewhat moot point but 'art' is not necessarily visual. nor is it inherently emotional. for instance, more and more i am growing to see the visual aspect of art, in general, as a craft. not that there's anything wrong with that.
'art' is about interactions. not what is on the tv but that it is on and where and for whom etc. all you have to do, as a game-maker, is take these (practically endless amount of) things into consideration to make art.
this is what an art-installation does, the closest equivalent I can think of. it isn't fair to compare the two directly though because a large part of an installation is that you know where it will be (usually a gallery, but graffiti is a growing example) and under what circumstances. obviously with videogames a creator has to give up an amount of control in that area. Anyway, i don't generally think of great art as being purchasable at gamestop.
*SHOOTS Harveryjames IN THE COCK* _________________ BUT I HATE COMICS
Last edited by table_and_chair on Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Harveyjames the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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*BANG* THUD
seriously though good point well made |
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internisus .
Joined: 25 Nov 2006 Posts: 354
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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player 2 wrote: | I was really hoping for something else from this thread. |
Me too. The other day, I was playing Half-Life 2 and a woman of about fifty years remarked that she couldn't understand how someone could do that -- play videogames for significant lengths of time. I tried to explain that that was because she wasn't interested in understanding, that she had written off the medium, that that was akin to saying "I don't understand how someone can read for significant lengths of time, that HL2 depicts a show of the human spirit of freedom as a resistance movement strikes back against the Orwellian, genocidal tyrannical police state holding all humankind hostage.
It was futile, of course. It's just hard to convince anyone to take videogames seriously. The stigma surrounding the name of the medium alone is enough, but most importantly, 95% of its product, including the most visible titles, are horribly embarrassing, trite, immature, violent crap. I can't really blame anyone for taking such a cynical attitude. |
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helicopterp .
Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:10 am Post subject: |
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Alright folks, I know I'm late to this discussion and not entirely topical anymore, but I just wanted to say that I think worrying about games' twist endings vs. those of other media is really ridiculous. Twist endings as an institution are pretty ridiculous, to tell you the truth, as are opinions that evaluate something's merits on how big the twist is. _________________ Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one. |
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JamesE .
Joined: 27 Nov 2006 Posts: 168 Location: Straight Up, Straight Down
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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internisus wrote: | player 2 wrote: | I was really hoping for something else from this thread. |
Me too. The other day, I was playing Half-Life 2 and a woman of about fifty years remarked that she couldn't understand how someone could do that -- play videogames for significant lengths of time. I tried to explain that that was because she wasn't interested in understanding, that she had written off the medium, that that was akin to saying "I don't understand how someone can read for significant lengths of time, that HL2 depicts a show of the human spirit of freedom as a resistance movement strikes back against the Orwellian, genocidal tyrannical police state holding all humankind hostage.
It was futile, of course. It's just hard to convince anyone to take videogames seriously. The stigma surrounding the name of the medium alone is enough, but most importantly, 95% of its product, including the most visible titles, are horribly embarrassing, trite, immature, violent crap. I can't really blame anyone for taking such a cynical attitude. |
You insulted her, man. Of course it's going to be futile if you make those kinds of assumptions about people's thoughts and motivations.
Games will never be digested like novels, because advancing in novels never required that much physical dexterity or effort, simply to get to the next page. It's mentally tiring and often laborious. You can get swept along by a novel as soon as you know how to read. _________________
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Scratchmonkey .
Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Alternately, you could have asked her about playing Freecell or Tetris or Bejeweled, since the odds would be decent that she's played one of those at one point or another and then use that as a common point possibly to discuss what different games do differently. |
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Redeye .
Joined: 02 Oct 2006 Posts: 986 Location: filth
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Scratchmonkey wrote: | Alternately, you could have asked her about playing Freecell or Tetris or Bejeweled, since the odds would be decent that she's played one of those at one point or another and then use that as a common point possibly to discuss what different games do differently. |
Why assume she has played any games at all? At least video games.
Her paradigm may be one of social interaction in a very direct and literal way. Face to face.
Talking about commonly known things, reaffirming common values.
"People who sit around staring at screens and clicking controls for hours on end" may seem alien to her.
The idea that most of her "real life" things are just as contrived and arbitrary may be beyond her. _________________ I felt sheer anarchic joy when I ran over my first pedestrian. |
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Cycle Mac daddy
Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:36 am Post subject: |
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i'm kind of embarrased of my first post now that this thread is going serious, oh well _________________
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