The Gamer's Quarter

Cycle · Mac daddy Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767

On wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twist_ending

Take a look at all the examples cited here for other mediums. Almost all classics, almost all moments that changed their medium.

Then look at videogames.

They mention the recent Sonic game. And Zelda.

I mean, Planescape isn't even on here.

Anyway, I was just reading the article and thought it was amusing. Not really trying to say anything, here. I should go to bed but I'm too sick to sleep.
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dhex · Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:18 am Post subject:

isn't this more of a wikipedia issue though?

aren't most games twist ending though? i'm hard pressed to think of a game that doesn't have some grand final betrayal or a ha moment.
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Ethoscapade · . Joined: 30 Oct 2005 Posts: 276

yeah, i've got news for you, those film examples are definitely worse than the games.

Pijaibros · Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:55 am Post subject:

Also movies and books have a rich history of things to sort through. You take almost 100 years of cinema and centuries worth of literature, you can pick and choose what is the best and what is not. I can't imagine how much of both mediums is pure rubbish.

Just looking at what's out today should maybe lend a clue to just how much rubbish was sorted through for actual gems.

Videogames have only been around for 30-some years and didn't really do anything interesting until the crash of '83. At this point, the fans are just taking what they can get since we are desperate to be taken seriously as a medium. Instead of being the scapegoat for everything wrong with the children.

player 2 · . Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA

I was really hoping for something else from this thread. Sad

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Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653

"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp

Pijaibros · Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:58 am Post subject:

What do you want?

Another "Are games Art?" thread.

Pfffft.

Mr Mustache · . Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 167 Location: Queens

At this point it's possible to find individual games that are not embarrassing, but the "culture" is always embarrassing.
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Straight up

dhex · Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:31 am Post subject:

ok so let's do something interesting:

why are so many people so desperate for the assurance from tastemakers and gatekeepers that they're not losers for playing games?

after a while it doesn't really appear to be that heavy a fixation on "why can't they make games that rock as hard as torment" or whatever so much as "why aren't we as cool as other largely unrelated art forms?"

also i really like that picture of that guy pointing. he looks totally fucked.
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player 2 · . Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA

There's a certain level of acceptance necessary to construct systems that allow games to be made for their artistic value as opposed to commercial value. You may or may not agree that this is valuable, but I am a supporter of game developers that create new and interesting things that may not be viable in today's industry but with a little nurturing and coddling could be hits.

Mostly I'm tired of the status quo of the game industry and want things to be shaken up. And tThere's a similar sentiment among independent film and music makers, too. I'm not saying that it's "right". More so just understandable. Or at least predictable?
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Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653

"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp

dhex · Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject:

things are shaking up, actually - it's just going in a casual games and unique controller options (some might call it gimmicky) direction, which is about as opposed to games as art as you can get. which for many will bear the fruit they desire. and for others not so much.

comparisons to other industries are not very handy for a number of reasons. one might as well ask why the supply chain for hot dogs is different than fresh produce and why ice cream is different than both of those. and the supply chain and creation issues, while closer to films than music, are still vastly different. and this goes double on the indie/amateur level. which may be part of the frustration, since your friend can start a band in his bedroom and his cousin can edit his movie down in between recording sessions. but folks who want some kind of explicit art in their games aren't as pleased with aftermarket game maker softwares and the like.

i mean, i asked several times after finishing torment why more games weren't written like that. short version: no one bought it. (addendum: interplay was run by fuckfaces)
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

Pijaibros · Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject:

Scratchmonkey · . Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439

I see it as a combo of two things:

1) Games are largely adolescent power fantasies that are bought, surprisingly enough, by adolescents and people who wear dragon t-shirts and listen to EBM. Despite my vitriol regarding this subject, adolescent power fantasies can be pretty fun, so I'm not exactly tearing up about this.

2) The game industry is startingly unable to learn lessons from other industries becuase, uh, I dunno, we're special? I mean, the most important of these are basic business practices, this still applies pretty well to originality in game design.

Of course, the game industry is making more money and reaching a wider audience than it did in any of the various "golden eras", so what the hell.

Cycle · Mac daddy Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767

ApM · Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject:

That stupid screeching cyborg zombie thing at the beginning of Space Quest IV makes a lot more sense, now.

dhex · Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject:

Cycle · Mac daddy Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767

400k is not bad at all, especially considering when it was released.
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parkbench · . Joined: 02 Jul 2007 Posts: 145

guys i think it's just time. we're like human beings in that painful growing stage between fully intelligent creature and proto-human ape, where he was probably just realizing he could do more shit than he thought but he didn't know why. or something.

what i mean to say is that we're in that stage where we're all starting to stop the wave that we've been riding for awhile and look back, but it's still a little early. give it anoter decade or so and i bet you things will start changing. and i'm not even talking about ARE GAMES ART?! i'm talking about the medium having grown to have its own real magnum opuses (opi?) and have twist endings and history and such.

Cycle · Mac daddy Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767

parkbench did you ever know that you're my hero
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dongle · . Joined: 25 Nov 2006 Posts: 290

Harveyjames · the meteor kid Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636

It's like games are stuck in the prog-rock era. Let's start making our own games! Spirit of 77, whoo!

It's a shame making games isn't as easy as learning three chords and starting a punk band.

dhex · Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject:

uh guys people do that already it's called super columbine massacre. it's just that they're not that much fun.

just like a lot of early punk was really fucking bad. a lot of any garage rock is generally really bad. check out laptop producers and chiptunes. most of it is fucking awful. most everything released sucks hard.

the better question is: why should games be exempt?

side question: why don't more people try to make games? (or if they do, why don't they follow through?)
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Harveyjames · the meteor kid Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636

Too much like hard work. I think with Punk there was really a sense that anyone could get up on stage and be in a band- but programming games is something that takes a lot of dedication. You have to be prepared to put a lot more into it than you might get out.

With punk rock, all you need is a human body and no shame!

Sure, most punk bands were rubbish, but I still love the idea of DIY culture. It's almost like whether they were any good or not is almost beyond the point.

dhex · Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject:

man that's basically the wikipedia problem in a nutshell.

isn't the issue that we don't need more bodies just milling about but actual quality?

perhaps there are several dozen issues milling about like unemployed youths in a local parking lot.
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

Harveyjames · the meteor kid Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636

This must be something I'm really interested in because I'm having the exact same conversation over in selectbutton.com in the latest 'nintendo' thread.

ApM · Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:12 pm Post subject:

I think many would-be designers are stuck in the mindset of creating a bunch of one-off experiences (256 mind-bending levels!) rather than something that is mechanically interesting over multiple playthroughs. If people sat down as if they were designing a board game, I think we'd see a lot more people following through with their ideas.

Scratchmonkey · . Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439

Harveyjames · the meteor kid Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636

Also let's never forget that Super Mario Bros. was made by like 6 guys in over the course of one month, If that's not inspiring, I don't know what is!

ApM · Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject:

There's no way SMB was made in a month. That's crazy urban legend talk. I call shenanigans. E.T. took five weeks. Ghostbusters took six weeks.

Crayon Physics and The Amazing Flying Brothers were both done in under a week, though, so with modern tools, you don't have to be looking at a big time investment to produce something interesting and innovative.

Harveyjames · the meteor kid Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636

Yeah.

I'm looking for the thing where I read Mario 1 was completed in a month... I've read 3 months for mario 2 (japanese and US version?) and 1 month for pac man vs, though.

The thing about E.T. was that it was just one guy doing the whole thing. Super Mario Bros. had enough staff to require a director and an assistant director, so I can believe they had enough people to accomplish what they did within the timescale. Although, I'm fully prepared to be proven wrong on this.

I also read that Pikmin was made in about three months! Stranger things have happened!

ApM · Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject:

"The bearing of a child takes nine months, no matter how many women are assigned."

Harveyjames · the meteor kid Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636

All those games I listed are pretty great, though.

Cycle · Mac daddy Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767

JamesE · Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject:

JamesE · Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:13 pm Post subject:

(Did that come across coherently I've been burnt out at work the last month)
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Harveyjames · the meteor kid Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636

Yeah, I agree. I think it's completely possible to make games that try and push the medium further without becoming being inaccessable.

Let's not keep saying 'arty' to vaguely define games we like though because then we'll have to start defining what it means and I'll have to put a bullet through my head.

dessgeega · Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject:

JamesE · Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject:

JamesE · Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:30 pm Post subject:

In #ic earlier tollmaster proposed a MUGEN for platformers/run n' guns. I think that would be a great idea.
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table_and_chair · . Joined: 15 Jun 2007 Posts: 30 Location: mississippi

i hate to expound on a somewhat moot point but 'art' is not necessarily visual. nor is it inherently emotional. for instance, more and more i am growing to see the visual aspect of art, in general, as a craft. not that there's anything wrong with that.
'art' is about interactions. not what is on the tv but that it is on and where and for whom etc. all you have to do, as a game-maker, is take these (practically endless amount of) things into consideration to make art.
this is what an art-installation does, the closest equivalent I can think of. it isn't fair to compare the two directly though because a large part of an installation is that you know where it will be (usually a gallery, but graffiti is a growing example) and under what circumstances. obviously with videogames a creator has to give up an amount of control in that area. Anyway, i don't generally think of great art as being purchasable at gamestop.

*SHOOTS Harveryjames IN THE COCK*
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BUT I HATE COMICS

Harveyjames · the meteor kid Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 3636

*BANG* THUD

seriously though good point well made

internisus · . Joined: 25 Nov 2006 Posts: 354

helicopterp · . Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: Philadelphia

Alright folks, I know I'm late to this discussion and not entirely topical anymore, but I just wanted to say that I think worrying about games' twist endings vs. those of other media is really ridiculous. Twist endings as an institution are pretty ridiculous, to tell you the truth, as are opinions that evaluate something's merits on how big the twist is.
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Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one.

JamesE · Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject:

Scratchmonkey · . Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439

Alternately, you could have asked her about playing Freecell or Tetris or Bejeweled, since the odds would be decent that she's played one of those at one point or another and then use that as a common point possibly to discuss what different games do differently.

Redeye · . Joined: 02 Oct 2006 Posts: 986 Location: filth

Cycle · Mac daddy Joined: 08 Sep 2006 Posts: 2767

i'm kind of embarrased of my first post now that this thread is going serious, oh well
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