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Games Devolving?
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Bai
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Joined: 21 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhex wrote:
does anyone really think games started as an "artistic statement?"

No, but the dominant perception of games as commmodities reduces the possibility of doing so. Games might not be 'artistic statements' now but it shouldn't have to remain that way. The market shouldn't have the last say in what games mean to gamers.

SuperWes wrote:
I'm dropping the BS bomb on this one too. If you're not buying games how can you know if they're any good?

Personally, I find it pretty easy to tell whether a game is good without playing it through reviews, press releases and such. I've read enough journalism to tell whether something is hype or not. Not a perfect instinct but in today's market, I don't have to be! To me, the distinction is so obvious!

SuperWes wrote:
There are many good games out there. In fact, almost every game released these days is at least competent, which is more than I can say for previous generations. Often times games "about stealing stuff and blowing stuff up" are usually pretty good, even if they don't meet your specific taste in games.

All this says is that stealing stuff and blowing shit up is just as entertaining, if not more, than previous generations. It doesn't address that some people are tired of games that involve this and that videogames might move beyond these limited play incentives and achieve other things.

SuperWes wrote:

In my eyes, the biggest difference between the current generation and previous generations is that the market driven stuff is actually good nowadays...Think about the licensed games out there now. If you're a fan of the license it's now possible to actually enjoy the games based on it.

Firstly, not everyone wants to play sequels, film spin-offs or retro releases. Chronicles of Riddick might have been good in terms of its core gameplay model. But it re-iterates an existing work (the film) and its ideas and doesn't qualify as being 'good' in my definition. I don't care how 'fun' it is to play, if it's repeating something I've already seen, I'm not interested.

I should have qualified this: my definition of 'good' means original, innovative product. Not sequels, spin-offs or 'retro' releases. When you eliminate those from the market, there isn't much left. The videogame market could almost sustain itself through derivation...but some of us just aren't interested in playing the next Final Fantasy instalment or Spiderman game, despite how good the gameplay is.
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TOLLMASTER wrote:
All we'd need is a system in place to match different skilled people up, and we'd have something happen. Possibly a mess, but an interesting one nonetheless. To revive a dying thread from the throes of internal bickering: any ideas?


I've got the basic design layout and even a few 3D models for a side scrolling shooter I'd like to make. If you're interested in helping with some programming let me know!

-Wes
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bai wrote:
Personally, I find it pretty easy to tell whether a game is good without playing it through reviews, press releases and such. I've read enough journalism to tell whether something is hype or not. Not a perfect instinct but in today's market, I don't have to be! To me, the distinction is so obvious!


I really don't get this. Games get higher reviews now than ever, and it's usually the most derivative ones that get the highest reviews. If no good game has come out in the past few years what was the last game that you actually bought?

Bai wrote:
All this says is that stealing stuff and blowing shit up is just as entertaining, if not more, than previous generations. It doesn't address that some people are tired of games that involve this and that videogames might move beyond these limited play incentives and achieve other things.


But isn't this all about entertainment? Wasn't the thing that got many of us into gaming called the NES? Art is boring. Entertainment is entertaining. "Play Incentives" do not define the originality and innovation that a game can provide. Grand Theft Auto was one of the most innovative games ever.

Bai wrote:
Firstly, not everyone wants to play sequels, film spin-offs or retro releases. Chronicles of Riddick might have been good in terms of its core gameplay model. But it re-iterates an existing work (the film) and its ideas and doesn't qualify as being 'good' in my definition. I don't care how 'fun' it is to play, if it's repeating something I've already seen, I'm not interested.


I'm not defending these types of games as where gaming needs to be, but a better alternative to where it could be. The industry has been made up of sequels and licensed games for almost as long as it has existed and I'd rather they were good than terrible. One out of ten idiots will tell you that ET is what caused the crash. What's significant isn't that this was a licensed game, it's that it was a bad licensed game. Important distinction there.

Bai wrote:
I should have qualified this: my definition of 'good' means original, innovative product. Not sequels, spin-offs or 'retro' releases. When you eliminate those from the market, there isn't much left. The videogame market could almost sustain itself through derivation...but some of us just aren't interested in playing the next Final Fantasy instalment or Spiderman game, despite how good the gameplay is.


And those of us that are willing to look beyond the premises will find things that have never been done before in nearly every good game. Even Final Fantasy installments and Spiderman games. The Final Fantasy titles are all completely unique stories and worlds, sharing little but a title and genre, yet somehow because the games have numbers at the end of their titles they are all worthless. The Spiderman 2 movie game made it fun to swing around the city for hours at a time with no goal in sight and no baddies to fight, but somehow because it was inspired by a movie its innovative gameplay means nothing.

If you close yourself off from all games that aren't based on a unique premise you'll miss out on a lot of innovation. Especially because there hasn't been a unique premise since pitfall.

-Wes
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Shapermc
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
I really don't get this. Games get higher reviews now than ever, and it's usually the most derivative ones that get the highest reviews. If no good game has come out in the past few years what was the last game that you actually bought?

I don't know which magazine it is, but it is either EGM or GamePro. They are going back and re-evaluating their reviews from 10 years or more back. They are saying that games like Last Action Hero (Genesis) that got an 8.5 really deserves a 3. That is the only one I can recall off hand. So what does this say about the magazine in general? That their reviews are not reliable. If not, well, that is what it is saying to me. One of the most important reasons I thinks scores (especially our of a 100% scale based on the American school grade letter system) are pretty tripe and useless. If you want to get an idea about the game cut past the mechanics explination, and the hype, and the slang, then get to the meat. That should be timeless. I think it is hard to get that part right. It should survive beyond the score, which would make the score useless.
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disneyland
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bai wrote:

Firstly, not everyone wants to play sequels, film spin-offs or retro releases. Chronicles of Riddick might have been good in terms of its core gameplay model. But it re-iterates an existing work (the film) and its ideas and doesn't qualify as being 'good' in my definition. I don't care how 'fun' it is to play, if it's repeating something I've already seen, I'm not interested.


Ok, Escape From Butcher Bay was actually a complete side-story to complement the two films, with zero movie re-iteration. It's not repeating something you've already seen. Sort of ironic that you cite this as a reason for not being interested; the entire premise of that particular game is to fill in a large, entirely ommitted 'Chronicle' between the film chapters. But that's not really a big deal. I could see how some people might think it's just a movie adaptation with scenarios pulled from the film, as most movie game tie-ins are. Easy presumption.

No...what throws me off about that statement is:
Quote:
"I don't care how 'fun' it is to play, if it's repeating something I've already seen, I'm not interested."


Dude, point blank: if you don't care how much fun you're having with games - why do you play them at all?

Quote:
I should have qualified this: my definition of 'good' means original, innovative product. Not sequels, spin-offs or 'retro' releases. When you eliminate those from the market, there isn't much left. The videogame market could almost sustain itself through derivation...but some of us just aren't interested in playing the next Final Fantasy instalment or Spiderman game, despite how good the gameplay is.


Agree with Wes here. Using Final Fantasy as an example of sequel evil is sort of bizarre, given that each game in the series has different cast, theme and world exploration. We're not talking cookie-cutter sequel cloning; Final Fantasy is more like a crest or a banner for an elite RPG kingdom, but every town in that kingdom is vastly different and probably worth visiting on its own.

And again:

Quote:
...some of us just aren't interested in playing the next Final Fantasy instalment or Spiderman game, despite how good the gameplay is.


I would have missed sooo many great gameplay experiences if I used this as some kind of mandate to govern what I play or do not play. I don't give a shit about the number after the title, as long as the developers deliver something entertaining. Imagine if I had skipped Streets of Rage 2 or Contra 3, or maybe Klonoa 2 or Resident Evil 4? I'd venture to say that many of the good feelings I have about gaming would be diminished if I hadn't played some great sequels. I would have deprived myself of the understanding I have about why some sequels are neccessary, and how they can be a fantastic extension of good ideas.

That thing about not being interested "...despite how good the gameplay is". Honestly, why bother playing at all? Video games are not so sacred a territory of entertainment that you should deprive yourself of an entertaining gameplay experience. Quick film example: to me, Michael Bay and Jerry Bruckheimer are sort of evil. They flood theatres with massive brainless action flicks like The Rock, Armageddon, and Bad Boys 2. Does that mean that I won't go see The Island next week? Shit no. By all accounts it's very entertaining, so I'll check it out. No need to curtail my intake of potential entertainment based on some kind of jaded personalized ethical stance I can't look past. I'll skip a Madden sequel, you know, because I don't play many sports games -- but I've witnessed dozens of people crowded around TVs in the last few years loving their time with the Madden games. Really and truly enjoying the gameplay. It looks good too, I can tell that much. Blah, blah - EA is evil and their sequels kill the industry! All those players being entertained couldn't give two shits about that stuff. I don't participate, but more power to them if a video game is bringing some light to their existence - whether it's totally original and innovative or a sequel. Perhaps a sequel to something totally original and innovative, with even more innovation?! Perish the thought!
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Mr. Mechanical
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the fact that every Final Fantasy game boils down to level grinding for the final boss and no matter how different the cast of characters and locations are it's pretty much the same type of standard RPG systems prettied up to look new and different? Same game, different coat of paint. But that's just arguing the details, not that I don't agree with the "pro-sequels" crowd on this, because I kind of do.

I can kind of see where Bai is coming from on this though. Derivations on a standard formula are nice to see, especially if you're a fan of that particular formula to begin with, but after a while it all starts to feel the same. Nothing really jumps out and grabs you because nothing is really that new on the surface. You have to dig deep, sometimes pretty deep, just to get to the fresh meat of a game.

That's kind of what scares me about developers today. They seem to want to focus more on systems(as in gameplay systems and such) instead of ideas. It's fine now because there are enough established systems out there to mess with but nobody really just seems to come up with an idea on the fly and decide to make it into a game these days, which is what a lot of people thought would start happening as technology advanced. Instead it seems internal politics are causing friction due to increasing costs of development and a sort of backwards thinking within the industry have led to a sort of comforting homogeneity within the ranks of the elite.

Not really a bad thing, if you think about it, because who doesn't like comfort? Just that it's nice to see new things come out based around ideas instead of formulas. Right now I'm really interested in Shadow of the Colossus because it all seems so beautifully simple in idea, yet elegantly grand and complex in execution.
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Mister Toups
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disneyland wrote:

Dude, point blank: if you don't care how much fun you're having with games - why do you play them at all?


That's a 64 million dollar question right there.
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mister Toups wrote:
disneyland wrote:

Dude, point blank: if you don't care how much fun you're having with games - why do you play them at all?


That's a 64 million dollar question right there.


I think when the word "fun" is used to describe games in this context, the person doesn't mean "fun" in the "joy" sense, they mean something that entertains them. This entertainment can come from the joy of moving a character around, but it can also come from being scared by Silent Hill, being charmed by Earthbound, being saddened by Ico, being immersed by Rez, being challenged by Gradius V, or simply seeing something new with Katamari. I know there are a lot of games you hate, Mr. Toups, and as much as you try to avoid the usage of the word, the reason you hate them is that you aren't having "fun" with them.

-Wes
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Shapermc
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, in that context, Killer 7 is great fun.
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was waiting for that. I'm sure to some people Killer 7 is pretty fun. I thought getting my wisdom teeth taken out was fun, but I wouldn't reccomend it to anyone as a great weekend activity.

-Wes
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Shapermc
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well... I mean... I do really like killer 7. I just know not everyone will agree.
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dark steve
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Killer 7, like Silent Hill, seems to be a sign of games maturing. Games that exist to enjoy via "appreciation," say.

I mean, who saw the Twin Peaks movie? Or Happiness?
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simplicio
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do games have to be "fun" & "artistic" at the same time though? I'll concede that I'm more interested in that artistic side of things, but I can appreciate games that only want to be fun too. I only worry because development is increasingly expensive and artistic games don't sell; if publishers decide the best idea is to focus solely on proven financial successes, we'll all be shorted the vast possibilities inherent in games as a serious artistic medium.
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dark steve
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They don't! And to use more wildly inappropriate movie analogies:

Ninja Gaiden is to Blade 2 as Killer 7 is to El Topo.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm hoping that people will eventually recognize the many shades of gray in the medium. A certain amount of fractionalization is necessary to see that there's different ways to play games and different reasons for doing so.

This doesn't seem to be working so well with other media, film for example; where the vast majority of what you see is the mainstream Hollywood stuff.
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Mister Toups
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DARING, BOLD, POORLY THOUGHT OUT DECLARATION:

Games don't have to be fun OR artistic.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mister Toups wrote:
DARING, BOLD, POORLY THOUGHT OUT DECLARATION:

Games don't have to be fun OR artistic.


I know half or more of what I play isn't. I tend to like things for purely conceptual or irrational personal reasons.

I'm sure other people do too.

sure.
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dark steve
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think 'conceptual' qualifies very broadly as artistic.

Also OCD as impetus goes without saying.
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simplicio
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, I should have outlined a third category of something like "addictive," cause lord knows I had no fun with Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance but I played it through anyway even when I had much better games sitting around. Is there a better word for this particular quality or should we coin one?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, "Dungeon Hack". Note: It doesn't actually have to be an RPG type game to be a Dungeon Hack, just to have that kind of play that compels the OCD side in all of us to come out and rear it's ugly face.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dark steve wrote:
I mean, who saw the Twin Peaks movie? Or Happiness?

I own Happiness (although I have gotten over it) and Twin Peaks Season 1, which is much better than Fire Walk With Me. I heard Season 2 may come out this fall...! Perhaps I will finally get to see the pilot episode.

simplicio wrote:
yeah, I should have outlined a third category of something like "addictive," cause lord knows I had no fun with Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance but I played it through anyway even when I had much better games sitting around. Is there a better word for this particular quality or should we coin one?


I think this may be happening with me and Meteos. I have played over 10 hours of the game (played, it has been powered on for over 12) and have no idea how it happen. Each game only lasts approximatly 2 min. I have launched over 300k meteos. I don't have even half the game unlocked. I want to play other games like Killer 7 that really have me interested... yet, Meteos makes me play. I turned on my DS last night to play more Aria of Sorrow, yet I tapped the Meteos box. I then played for about an hour. I have no idea how it happen. I don't think it is a bad game, I just don't know if I really like it.
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mister Toups wrote:
Games don't have to be fun OR artistic.


It's TRUE!

-Wes
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lackey wrote:
I tend to like things for purely conceptual or irrational personal reasons.


But the 16-bit million dollar question is "do you have fun when playing things for purely conceptual or irrational personal reasons?"

-Wes
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shapermc wrote:

I think this may be happening with me and Meteos. I have played over 10 hours of the game (played, it has been powered on for over 12) and have no idea how it happen. Each game only lasts approximatly 2 min. I have launched over 300k meteos. I don't have even half the game unlocked.


haha, i actually do have nearly everything in the game unlocked, because i'm a maniac. i did next to nothing for the first few days after getting my hands on meteos but play it over and over.

i think part of it was the exhuberance of actually having a game worth playing in my ds.
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dark steve
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I own Happiness (although I have gotten over it) and Twin Peaks Season 1, which is much better than Fire Walk With Me. I heard Season 2 may come out this fall...! Perhaps I will finally get to see the pilot episode.


While both those movies (but especially Fire Walk.. but especially Happiness) are by no means "pleasant", you're pleased by watching them. Fuck if anyone thought Silent Hill 2 was "pleasant", you know? There's no reason why games should be different.

I've got bootleg DVDRs of all of unreleased (in the states) Twin Peaks stuff. They aren't even close to how good the box set looks and sounds, the official release can't come soon enough (which I heard has been pushed back to 2006 so Lynch has time to supervise the transfers).
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

happiness isn't pleasant. but unpleasantness can be attractive. (not the movie to see on new year's eve, btw)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me restate "got over" for Happiness. I thought it was fantastic for a while. Some "great movie" but then I realised it was just good and pretty honest.
dark steve wrote:
the official release can't come soon enough (which I heard has been pushed back to 2006 so Lynch has time to supervise the transfers).

Fine with me man! I am all about high qulity transfers.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So games don't have to be anything. Glad that's out of the way.

And if you're just plain itching for the pilot, shaper..
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dark steve wrote:
So games don't have to be anything. Glad that's out of the way.

And if you're just plain itching for the pilot, shaper..

Aparently dieting is a game... so yea.
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Bai
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I'm getting tired of games. Fun is subjective and my interest in gaming is to explore different worlds and new experiences. I never suggested replacing entertainment with 'art' (whatever that may be!), rather than entertaining games should be more artistic. Nor did I mean that innovative gameplay means nothing, just that it is compromised. But it says something about the industry that franchises are a necessary first vehicle for innovative ideas because there isn't enough money or trust to let those ideas stand on their own. I don't blame it: there just isn't the demand or the means.

Well, I wouldn't see The Island by Jerry Bruckheimer but I do enjoy a good popcorn flick (I saw Sin City on the weekend, pretty good). But if I got tired of The Island and Sin City, there would be *plenty* of other original, more experimental films on offer (Moolaade, 2046, The Yes Men, Three Dollars, Nobody Knows). This isn't the case with videogames. Maybe I'm being too harsh but in my home country (Australia) where games retail for $100, it's too expensive for me to buy new games unless I feel that they offer a really different experience to the games I already own. And let's be honest: the innovations in most sequels are often incremental, overrated and unimaginative.

Mr. Mechanical correctly alludes that most games are sequels, sequels are primarily the interest of gamers who are fans and therefore that most gamers are fans. There is little incentive for the so-called 'casual' gamer (like me) with no franchise loyalties to persist with the hobby when there are few original releases annually and even fewer good original releases. And then you have to borrow your mate's credit card and buy it off eBay because someone's already bought the only one copy in the entire country! I'm aware that my taste in videogaming is a minority which explains the lack of supply. But from visiting discussion boards like these, I don't think I'm alone. There's a remarkable amount of intelligence and thoughtfulness in the gaming community but collectively, we seem to consume rehashed product because it's better than the alternative (no game at all).

All your arguments so far seem to presume that gaming is about sequels and licenses and that this is somehow the natural way of things and we shouldn't ask for anything more than for developers to produce better licensed games. As mentioned before, this is simply the dominant view, structured by market interests with weak journalistic and intellectual opposition. It's not the obvious or natural one. The videogame industry doesn't naturally exist to add momentum to existing licenses. It's just the most economically convenient path, given this particular moment in history. If the situation changes, if we decide that we're tired of sequels and franchises, so would the market.

At the moment, the videogame industry resembles a kind of passive, secondary industry that re-iterates other industries and existing ideas with few unique voices of its own. I regard efforts like the Spiderman, Batman, Star Wars and Lord of the Rings videogames as extensions of film marketing and I can rarely accept their worth beyond something that was designed to flog an existing idea for more money (intent is crucial here though exceptions exist). This continues because we, the gaming population accept it as the 'norm'. The ideology among gamers is that rehashed gameplay is ok with a different setting and that rehashed setting is ok with decent gameplay. There's little demand for both and it's almost like we're too afraid to ask! This explains the lucrative success of the industry: gamers are more willing to accept derivation as part of how videogames are and it's easy for a corporation to make minor changes and sell the same game over and over. Not only do I believe that the industry is capable of creating really interesting and challenging works, but that there is a market for it, if only gamers would be more assertive with their tastes.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bai-

If that is how you feel you need to pick up a couple games from this list:

Rez
Ico
Shadow of the Collosus (soon)
Beyond Good & Evil
Resident Evil 4
Killer 7
Eternal Darkness (if you can find it on the cheap)
Metroid Prime
F-Zero GX
Silent Hill (any)
Winning Eleven
Phantom Crash (if you can find it cheap)

I'm sure there are more, but... yeah... As far as this generation goes, these have been the games that have kept me interested in games as a form (whatever the fuck that might be). RPGs have died.
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Bai
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Joined: 21 Jun 2005
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey thanks mate. I've played a few on that list (Ico, Rez) when I had my PS2 which I've since sold (to calintz actually Razz). I don't have a Gamecube so I'll miss Beyond Good & Evil and Killer 7 which look damn interesting, along with Viewtiful Joe, Animal Crossing and Pikmin. I'm sure there are a few on the Xbox as well.
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Mister Toups
Hates your favorite videogame
Hates your favorite videogame


Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 1693
Location: Lafayette, LA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bai wrote:
I'm sure there are a few on the Xbox as well.


Not really.



Fable, I guess. If you're into that sort of thing.
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SuperWes
Updated the banners, but not his title
Updated the banners, but not his title


Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3725

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bai wrote:
Hey thanks mate. I've played a few on that list (Ico, Rez) when I had my PS2 which I've since sold (to calintz actually Razz). I don't have a Gamecube so I'll miss Beyond Good & Evil and Killer 7 which look damn interesting, along with Viewtiful Joe, Animal Crossing and Pikmin. I'm sure there are a few on the Xbox as well.


Well put your money where your mouth is. If you (someone who gets on message boards and preaches about originality) are unwilling to pay for original game ideas, what makes you think other people are?

You said that you're all about exploring new worlds. I'm really not all about that at all. One of my biggest gripes with New Games Journalism is that people sometimes write from the first person perspective, as if they're in the game, when writing about games where you really don't feel like you are doing the things that the character in the game is doing. In short: you're not always going to be exploring new worlds. I personally play games to explore new ways of interacting with worlds. I really don't need a new franchise to see these things. Resident Evil 4 is a sequel but it feels like a whole new type of game simply because they change the way that you interact with the world.

But yeah, I'd rather play Spiderman 2: The Movie Game than I would Tork: Prehistoric Punk, even though Tork is based on a totally original character and set in a totally original world just because Spiderman 2 allows me to interact with the environment in new ways. But I'd rather play Culdcept than either one of these...

-Wes
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