The Gamer's Quarter

[david]

So, I finished Zelda. It was pretty much a full time job for the past week. Took me about 45 hours. Is anyone else ready to discuss the game from this perspective?

I'm going to start with some of my impressions, but feel free to ignore them and jump in with your own.

Obviously this thread will be full of spoilers. All Zelda games are in-bounds for spoiler-ridden discussion, so we can talk about how TP fits in to the series.
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[david]

Okay, here are various impressions and comments. Again, spoilers below.

First of all, I'm floored by the level of aesthetic polish. It's a little uneven, i.e. some areas look slightly bland, but where the game shines, it really shines. Hyrule is bigger and grander than ever, almost to an intimidating extent. Nintendo upped the ante such that an experienced player can feel the impact of "really being there" all over again.

Also, the game is not annoying! Amazing, considering how perfunctory and cloying Wind Waker's tasks became.

The new weapons are amazing, especially the ball and chain and the spinner. I dig the straightforward names -- reminds me of the first game.

The remote is excellent for aiming and menu selection, and I like the comfort of having it in two pieces. In the end, I have to say sword fighting is compromised, but it's not terrible. Swinging the remote is novel, and seems to work consistently, but at the same time isn't totally reliable... or maybe I should say, it takes more sensitivity and care to use. Sometimes my gesture isn't abrupt enough, and produces no result, and I have to swing again. It's a little thing, but after 45 hours with the game, it still happens, so that slightly damages my feeling of connection. The controls are a little more problematic in difficult fights, like some of the darknut battles in Hyrule Castle near the end. When I'm anxious during a tough fight, I can't help swinging a little less patiently, and somehow the lack of result from my mistimed moves feels more glaring than a lack of response to a button. On the other hand, making that kind of gesture helps physical emphathy with Link, and it is satisfying to bash monsters that way. It was a good approach to try, but I'd feel mixed about it being used as is in future games.

As for the story, I'm still kind of thinking it through, but it felt undeveloped in the latter part of the game. There was stuff suggested early on that never came to fruition. For example, Link could have been way more interesting. There were indications early in the story that some dark depths would be delved, vis-a-vis Link, e.g. his power and not-fitting-in-ness. It was quite clever to start him off as a simple and well-liked farm hand, and then to return him to his village as a wolf, saddled with new responsibilities and worries of which he can tell no one, skulking around in the shadows of his home. At one point Midna called him a "lonely hero." Tthe human/wolf thing was really working, story-wise. Link is a dashing hero who everyone likes, but he carries burdens and knows darkness that other people can't undestand. It's quite 21st century and makes him a more interesting figure. There was further suggestion in this direction when Midna says, at several points, that their quest might unleash something terrible, or that the power they're trying to assemble could lead to evil. There's that story scene with Link and Ilia losing their pupils and turning against each other, suggesting that even the most pure person can submit to negative emotions. Okay, but it never really goes anywhere, does it? In fact, it's minimized: Wolf Link eventually becomes just another "item," used for warping, finding Poe's Souls, and tracking scents.

More broadly, there were a lot of indications -- many external to the game -- suggesting that TP would fit in much more with the big series timeline. Aonuma said it takes place a few decades after Ocarina, and presumably about 70 years before Wind Waker. So where's the flood? Where's anything that would help it run into Wind Waker? Of course TP lavishly, worshipfully references Ocarina of Time, but doesn't really connect to it, plot-wise. We learn half way through that Ganon was sealed in the Twilight Realm... so, that was a different occasion than when he was sealed in the Sacred Realm in Ocarina? Did that happen sometime between Ocarina and Twilight Princess? How did he get out of the Sacred Realm to begin with? Why didn't the story deal with that? And I'm not even sure I caught what happens at the end. Is Ganon dead? Is he left standing in Hyrule Field? Does Zant's suicide mean that Ganon's power has no vehicle any more? But he wasn't operating through Zant at the end, since escaping the Twilight Realm...

One intriguing connection between TP and Wind Waker is the design of the Twilight Realm. I noticed this months back, looking at Midna's helmet, the grey with blue linear designs pulsing through it. That aesthetic looks very much like some areas in Wind Waker, in particular the top chamber of the Tower of the Gods.

You know, I really thought the Twilight Realm was going to overwhelm Hyrule... Remember that in the early screenshots, the Twilight was black and white, just like the submerged Hyrule in WW before Link pulls the Master Sword from its pedestal. That Hyrule was frozen in time, just like a world where it's always Twilight.

For a game which is supposedly the last Zelda of its kind, and obviously a tribute to the past games, it's curious and disappointing that it didn't do more to pull the story together. And how long is the split timeline theory going to exist without any reason? Aonuma confirmed that Hyrule's timeline split after Ocarina, but so far there's absolutely no point to this. It's just a meaningless and confusing bit of trivia. How far-reaching is his vision for the series? When is something like that going to matter? The timeline is something I never used to care about, until Wind Waker indicated that it was going to matter. Why introduce such complexities and connections and then not really play on them?

Ever since Ocarina, the Zelda stories have gotten pretty silly and confused. The stories are grand and biblical, but without thematic resonance. For example, The Wind Waker presented a world where the people had been scattered, their old kingdom destroyed. That's potentially a very strong theme for the game. But the people you meet seem quite content on their little islands, and as Link sails around, the predominant mood is high adventure (or bordom), not awe at the emptiness and raw landscape the world has reverted to since the apolcalyptic flood.

Link to the Past worked because its dominant theme -- a world parallel to Hyrule, reflecting the nature of its master -- was comprehensively fleshed out and utilized by the game design. Ocarina was about time travel, but mainly this just meant that Link skipped 10 years of his life. The two time periods were hardly differentiated, except for Hyrule Castle Town. The Zelda game that really dealt with time -- syncronicity, "time running out," the repetition of daily life and its nobility in the face of impending destruction -- was Majora's Mask.

So anyway. This old timer feels a bit left behind by the silly plots and epic gestures without follow-through. When plot twists and mythology exist for their own sake, for obsessive cataloging of minutia, or to fuel contortionist continuity theories, they cease to have power as human stories.

Also:

Is there a way to repair Eldin Bridge?

And:

I never found the third tunic...
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[Shapermc]

Ok, I'm going to post my impressions that I put up on Sat night after finishing the game, then I'll get into a discussion on your points (some of which I may have some insight to).

This has pretty much no spoilers:

I just finished Twilight Princess, and it was in just shy of 40 hours, a few hours of which I am sure the game was paused for. I will say that I was not expecting much going into the game, I haven't finished a Zelda game since Link's Awakening, nor have I enjoyed them (esp. the 3D games). I am tired of either crappy or weak motivation, a lot of time filled with collect-a-thons, too much talking about things I don't care about, and a feeling like the game is shitting on my memories of the original game.

I had nearly none of these problems with the game. In fact, if I had to list problems with the game it would be small. Hell, I'll do it anyways. There is no camera control for the Wii version which makes certain things way more irritating than they should be, but most of the time it was bearable. It took me a while to get use to the fact that you now waggle a controller. Every time you load the game it thinks you forgot the value of the rupies, so it re-tells you those once each. That's it.

The pacing is really excellent in the game. The set pieces are outstanding. The game is hold-your-hand light (it makes Okami seem even worse and more bloated). The dungeon design is fantastic. The story is good and very forward thinking for the "world of Zelda" as it has progressed through Zelda->Zelda 2->Link's Awakening, as in it never feels like they had to rely on nostalgia or revisiting certain things. The least original part of the game is the first dungeon, but you will forget about that half way through it. Doing things in the Twilight Realm, then going back to the normal realm you don't have to really do anything in those levels, so it's not as if the game has been given the TR just to falsely extend the game.

This game is probably the closest game to a "perfect game" I have played in a long time. It also has some of the best pacing in a game this long ever. The motivation is appropriate as well.

So, don't get your hopes up too high: this isn't the Zelda you've been waiting for that is just like Zelda (or any others since). This game is how the series should progress into 3D, and I finally feel like there is a fourth Zelda game in the series worth noting to others.
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

[Shapermc]

As originally posted, this may contain spoilers you don’t want to read:

[Shapermc]

[david]

[david]

Matt, you mentioned "motivation" a few times. Could you elaborate on that idea, in the context of Zelda, this Zelda, or other games?
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[Shapermc]

[david]

Thanks for pointing out this thread again, Shaper. I was just about to post something that's only for people who've finished the game.

My question is, what do you guys make of the way the game is basically divided in half, and what's going on in the second half? The first half, your mission is to save Hyrule from the Twilight. Much like Majora's Mask, there's a big, wonderous and imposing vision in the overworld to remind you of the kingdom's troubles. Then, after defeating all the insects, Hyrule is restored to its full glory, and you're able to ride around taking in the sights and the nostalgic imagery. Hyrule Castle is trapped in a golden pyramid cube thing, presumably to create a new reminder that there's something to remedy. But besides that, there's really nothing in the world to tell you it needs saving. I mean, the people in Castle Town don't really act very concerned about what's going on in the castle. Maybe there is some chatter about it, but lives are going on as usual. You don't see the army making any attemps to get in... it's just, "hmm, no one can get in the castle. Kind of annoying!" Eventually you find out the castle is pretty empty, though there are plenty of monsters camped out in the gardens. And Ganondorf is just hanging out in the throne room on the top floor, just waiting for you to show up for an Ocarina of Time-style showdown (it's slightly disappointing that he's not playing a giant organ -- one of his hidden talents revealed in OoT).

Granted, OoT and most of the other Zeldas (MM excepted) are like that, with life going on as usual and the boss just waiting somewhere. But TP starts off with a tangible threat. You see people suffering in fear and you see how the world has been affected. With that as a precedent, the second half of the game feels a bit empty and devoid of motivation.

Maybe this is a plot issue more than a gameplay issue, but it's connected insofar as story creates the context and motivation for the player. What is the game saying or making you feel by splitting the game in half and removing the main threat (the shadow of Twilight darkening Hyrule)? Did that work for you?

My own guess is that first off, Aonuma was again following tradition, with an introductory set of dungeons (usually three) leading to a second (usually grander and longer) set. Also, similar to the way WW teases the player with stories and visions of old Hyrule, TP is making the player appreciate the land more by freeing it first -- just like the arrival of green-tunic Link is delayed and glorified by contrast with the lowly (though cool in a different way) wolf form. So Aonuma is using the nostalgia people feel for the classic Zelda scenario as motivation, gradually giving the player more and more until TP becomes the full vision of Zelda-as-told-in-Ocarina, but of course bigger and brassier than ever before.

As for why the second half of the game feels so much less imperiled (when common sense suggests the journey should be getting more dangerous and dramatic), I think that's just a reversion to the old games, where as I said the threat was always tucked away, waiting. There's no precedent for a Zelda game that gets more desperate towards the end.

My gut feeling is that it's just another case of story not being really important to Nintendo. Zelda and Mario are games about fun doohickeys -- boomerangs and water backpacks and animals you can ride -- not about ideas. I think I had this conversation with Toups recently, about how Ueda (SotC) is about getting an idea across, and the game is built up to facilitate that vision. Miyamoto starts from the captivating lively mechanism and creates scenarios from that. (Actually Toups and I agreed that Aonuma has more of a storyteling leaning, as evidenced by Majora's Mask primarily, but it's either less honed than Ueda's, or just subverted by all the baggage of a Zelda game.) I see this difference in priorities all over the place in TP. There are some really interesting story elements suggested early in the game, but they're not really developed. For Miyamoto it's enough to suggest them, just to add some flavor, but he's not letting those story ideas feed back into the gameplay to an extent that would create a harmonious whole.

In particular I'm thinking about a lot of stuff that happens when Link is stalking around the villages as a wolf, and people thinks he's a monster. But when he's a human, people think he's so angelic that they let him off the hook. (The pregnant lady in Ordona sees that Link has Rusl's sword and says, "oh! The monsters stole that sword! But you got it back? That's wonderful, you can keep it if you need it. It always lifts my spirits to see your face," or something equally guilt-ifying. Then there's the way you team up with Midna, a creature of questionable motivations, and of course that freaky cut scene before the Water Temple that shows Link becoming an evil man with no pupils. All this stuff was suggesting a real powerful tension between light and dark, and that Link would have to negotiate that divide very carefully to maintain his goodness. But, as Shaper has pointed out, when Midna is granted Zelda's "spirit" so she can exist in the light, and Link becomes able to transform at will, the player gains a mastery over the twilight. I just think, dramatically speaking, why would that happen so early? There were greater depths to be delved in terms of the light-dark theme, but all that stuff goes away in the second half.

Do you guys see where I'm coming from? Any of this stuff strike you differently?
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[dessgeega]

[Shapermc]

Ok, this has actually spurred me to write said article. I guess what I was more trying to say was that Link is a vessel for you to both use as a blank slate when need and an amplifier for your emotions (if the game was successful in capturing them) at critical moments. Not a total and literal blank slate such as Quake Man or anything, but more of a vessel for you to use so that you know your lines.

Anyways, perhaps we should team up on this article Dess.
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

[Harveyjames]

Now I've read your thoughts on this, I think hmm, maybe I missed the point a little with TP's story. I must say, I wasn't feeling it when I played it. I was moved when Link had to take Midna to see Princess Zelda and I sensed that that was the turning point in their relationship, but I never saw their relationship as being the main drive of the narrative until the game was almost over.

I think maybe the problem was that the story is perhaps misleadingly called 'The Legend of Zelda: The Twilight Princess', and I was so captivated by the image of this lonely Princess held captive in the twilight world I thought that this would be the main focus of the story. So I spent the whole game thinking 'but when are we going hear more about Princess Zelda?' I had no idea that the stuff between Midna, Zant and Link were such important storytelling scenes, and that the game was almost over after the Tron Dungeon. I seriously thought I was about 5 dungeons before the end and I had all the character development with Ganondorf and Zelda yet to come!

Huh.

Well, here's my post moved from the Twilight Princess thread. It's a disjointed, barely literate ramble. I still think this game lacks a clear-cut antagonist, though. Also, Princess Zelda should probably make it clear that she isn't interested in Link a few times during the game so people like me don't get confused.

[internisus]

Done. The best dungeons were the water temple and the sky city. The Temple of Time was very disappointing. Getting into it and the way it related to the Master Sword grove was wonderful, but the dungeon itself was an enormous waste of potential.

The highlight of the game, without a doubt, was returning to twilight Hyrule Castle with Midna dying on my back after finding all the fused shadows. It had a gorgeous symmetry in that the first time through there was all about Midna helping you learn to play as the wolf but this time you have to do it all on your own. I felt a strong emotional involvement at that point in the game. I also really liked her character in general and was impressed with her development, which was well done in the way that it only comes through with her body language and less condescending speech towards Link and her broadening concerns are explained in past-tense later in the game. I found myself wondering throughout the game what her agenda could be, being a creature of shadow helping to restore the light realm, and finding out how good-intentioned she was becoming later on made a lot of sense. She was also a much better developed tragic and self-sacrificing figure than Zelda has ever been in any game.

I guess the ending left me let down. I think it could have benefitted from an Earthbound sort of thing since the NPCs were the most complete of any Zelda game. I also don't see why Midna broke the mirror and would have preferred the romantic separation of Princess Mononoke instead: "So you go and help your people, and I'll be doing the same over here, and we'll both know that we're here. We'll see each other again."

I share some of David's disappointments over dark and creepy elements of both story and gameplay fading or simply not coming to fruition over the course of the game.

Anyway, TP is definitely the best Zelda I've ever played. It's still far from perfect, but I enjoyed it a great deal. In the big scheme of things, it wasn't a very important experience, though.

edit: oh, shit. dessgeega's post. I saw all of that, too. Awesome. I guess, though, that some of it didn't work quite perfectly for me. But yeah, great post.

[Lestrade]

I finally finished this! My final time was just under 41 hours. For the record, I did not:

• collect the minimum number of Poes to even participate in that quest (only 19)
• get the third tunic
• go lure fishing, even once
• even think about the Cave of Ordeals
• collect any bugs unless I happened upon them

I'm glad that none of this was required. I think I only had 13 hearts by the end of it; I stumbled across some of the grottoes, purely by accident, and was rewarded with some pieces of heart.

Dess, I think you said it well. Though a lot of the character development was a little underbaked, what was there was pretty surprising for a Nintendo game. Though the foreshadowed corruption of Link's soul (or what-have-you) never happened, I too caught the bit at the end where Link (despite apparently returning the Master Sword to the Temple of Time) left his village. Ilia looks on, as if to wonder if he'll ever return.

I mean, it's like the ending to Lord of the Rings; after all that, how do you return to a normal life? Poor Link; someone he obviously cared about — and who cared about him — is gone forever. Midna's "Link, I..." was torturous.

Next Zelda: embittered Link tries to bust open the path to the Twilight Realm in a vain and misguided attempt to reunite with Midna!

P.S. I liked Midna better as a "hideous little imp," or however she referred to herself as.

[helicopterp]

[silentmatt]

The Cave of Ordeals was my favourite section in the entire game.

It was hot.
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PSN: Twitch_City ||| Wii: 8083 5371 5767 6700
"Jadis, si je me souviens bien, ma vie était un festin où s'ouvraient tous les coeurs, où tous les vins coulaient."

[Nana Komatsu]

I finished the game just now! The ending was excellent, even if it was spoiled for me (well I spoiled it for myself). Midna may be my new favorite video game character ever.

I will say, I was hoping for Twilight Wolf Link to unburrow from the ground in the twilight world at the end but I knew it wasn't to be.

Also, it only took me 34 hours to beat the game without doing the Cave of Ordeals (I'll go back and do that later) which seems lower than other people's numbers. I'm a little curious as to why that is.

I still think I like Wind Waker overall more for the gameplay experience, but this one had a better story by far.

[Cycle]

I just finished Snowpeak! What a lovely dungeon!

Anyway, I've been exploring Hyrule Town again for the first time in awhile and found out I've missed quite a few little things. For example, there is a shield apart from that crappy wooden one.
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[internisus]

Yeah, you can buy that at Kakariko's Malo Mart even before you go to Death Mountain.

[Cycle]

I guess I was too busy fighting the good fight to notice! I haven't seemed to have really needed a shield anyway, I'm up to the second last dungeon and spent most of the game without one. So that's cool.
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[Nana Komatsu]

Yes my lack of a shield only became an issue when the golden wolf wouldn't teach me a new skill until I had one. That said, having one makes the last fight a lot easier.

[Cycle]

Perhaps it's worthy investment.

I also haven't bothered with any of those wolf stones. I find the whole whistling thing too much of a pain in the arse so I just never bothered.
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[Nana Komatsu]

The back slice helped me a lot in the last fight, and the helm splitter worked on every sword fight up until the last boss. I also didn't go out of my way to find any of these, they just were around in the normal course of the game.

[Cycle]

My problem was that I just had too much trouble replicating the music for most of them. I liked the Ocarina better!
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[Nana Komatsu]

I agree the howling is dumb, but at least they don't make you memorize songs (for longer than it takes to repeat) in this one.

[internisus]

Yeah, as the melodies become more complicated the howling becomes stupider. I was alright with it at first, even though it's just an obvious continuation of the whole having to make rudimentary music in a zelda game.

You really shouldn't have skipped those wolf stones, though. The helm splitter and backslice are essential combat abilities. The mortal draw is pretty cool, too. Those abilities are so essential that I do not think you can beat some of the straight fighting foes without them. In fact, the final battle sucked in my opinion because it consisted of just backslicing over and over with a two-hit combo followup. I don't know why everyone likes that fight so much.

[Lestrade]

[Slonie]

[Shapermc]

Umm, stupid question... what/where is the cave of ordeals, and what do you have to do to open it?
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

[Lestrade]

So I mucked around in the Cave—or as those guys on MyCheats said, I "spelunked the crap" out of it—and got down to the tenth level, and the first Great Faerie. I find the notion of a 50-floor, descending dungeon fascinating. It's surprisingly fun.

Shaper, the Cave of Ordeals is a plotless grind hidden in the Gerudo Desert. If you head to the desert via the cannon in Lake Hylia, head southeast, where you can see what looks like a large flat monolith sticking up. It's positioned so that it catches the sun and moonlight very obviously.

Use your double-clawshot to scale the small rock outcropping, and approach the monolith. (I think at this point you get attacked by Twilight creatures, which gives you a proper warp portal.)

Midna will get curious and you'll realize that the structure is actually the missing middle piece from the Eldin bridge. Warp when she asks you to, and choose the bridge as your location. She'll take the piece with her and fit it back into place. Then warp back and you'll notice a very obvious entrance where the bridge piece was.

Enter that, and despair!

For every ten floors that you clear, you meet a Great Faerie, who releases faeries into a particular spring within Hyrule (she also gives you a Great Faerie Tear, which heals you completely and gives you a temporary attack boost). I assume they respawn after you catch one, but I can't be sure. Once you clear all 50 floors, the final faerie releases Great Faeries into all the springs, so you can get the Tears (only one at a time) any time you like.

[Shapermc]

[Ethoscapade]

[internisus]

I agree with your sentiment entirely. In fact, playing Metroid Prime again last night for the first time since I got it, I was appalled at how much Zelda it has flowing through its veins.

I think you can take the notion of lock-and-key design and expand it to the point where even potentially interesting combat situations take on such a form.




However. Why does everyone like Snowpeak so damn much? I'd like to hear an explanation.

[Harveyjames]

'Cause it tells a little self-contained story as you go through the dungeon

And there's never been a dungeon in a Zelda game which was also a delapidated mansion. So it felt fresh, for these two reasons.

Also it's cute. The yetis love each other! One makes soup!

[internisus]

Oh.

Well, yeah. I mean, that's the appeal of the dungeon, inasmuch as (almost) every dungeon has some kind of appeal. I just wasn't very impressed because the mansion was laid out a bit too gamey-like to be impressive (I guess I felt it could have been Hyrule Castle, you know?) and the cuteness and the story and the yetis were too simplistic and obvious. I guess I like it in principle, like many of you seem to, but that led to the execution feeling undercooked. Does that make sense?

I'm glad I wasn't missing something mentally there. Thanks.

[Shapermc]

You also have to sled your way to the door.
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932

"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!"

[internisus]

yeah, that was pretty fun, wasn't it?

did anybody go back and explore that whole area on foot? i thought about it.

[Harveyjames]

I did. There's nothing there :|

At least, I don't think so.

I just remembered there's a dungeon/mansion in Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles (the one with the Tonberry Chefs). So I guess Snowpeak's not that original, but I wasn't expecting it in a Zelda game, at least.

[internisus]

I have never and never will think that FF:CC is a game I would like.

[Harveyjames]

Yep, it just shows you where the pieces of heart are. This disappointed me, I had a whole scenario planned out where Link falls in love with the fishing girl and the charity guy was in cahoots with the gypsy, and both were scam artists. My imagination ran wild!

[internisus]

Yeah, I feel you. There were a number of mysterious elements in the game that had my imagination run wild, until I learned that they were very, very banal gamey modern zelda things. =(

I do love that the fishing girl actually flirts with you, though. If you look at certain photos numerous times, for instance. It sort of makes you long for more, yeah, but it's more than there has ever been for a zelda game. Most of the TP NPCs are like that.

[Harveyjames]

In Majora's Mask and Wind Waker though, you can change the lives of the NPCs! I thought it was great how you can get Baito a job at the post office and get the couple on Windfall Island to get together... there are more examples of this which escape me. There's not really anything like that in TP, so it's a step backwards in that respect.

[Cycle]

so hey dess how are you enjoying majoras mask
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[dessgeega]

i'm not!

(it hasn't arrived yet.)
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[Ethoscapade]

oh hey i thought i was the only one who decided to play majora's mask immediately after finishing twilight princess; neat.

i like it so far. but i only just got things under control.

[Cycle]

[wourme]

So, has anyone finished the cave of ordeals? I've tried it three times now, and it's pretty difficult. I thought it might be over after the really hard (for me) fight against two of those armor-shedding guys at once, but it just keeps going. I guess I should get blue potions instead of fairies before I try it again. I assume they refill all your hearts instead of just eight. If I can bring myself to try it again, that is--it makes my hands hurt.

I'm putting off what I assume is the very last dungeon, as I know that after I beat it I'll most likely never play the game again and I kind of want to beat this cave.

Sorry if my question is already answered in this thread. I don't want to read through it because I haven't actually finished the game.

[Harveyjames]

Right, at the end of Hyrule Castle there's a locked door just before you go through the door to meet Ganon. The map shows that this door has many chests behind it, but if you haven't explored the castle thoroughly enough you won't be able to open it. This is quite a neat touch, I feel.

I couldn't be bothered to go back and find the key to unlock it, though. What's in the chests? What kind of a room is it?

[Ethoscapade]

in a perfect world, it'd be five heart pieces. probably just rupees, though. i couldn't be bothered!

[Harveyjames]

Sometimes the best secrets in games are the ones which give you a little inside knowledge, like when you discover the Wind Fish's mural like two dungeons before you're supposed to in Link's Awakening. That felt special. Also, 'They say Ganondorf rides a black gerudo stallion'.

If I had made that game I would have had an impressive Bayuex Tapestry-style mural in that locked-off room which said something about the true nature of Ganondorf... 'they say the one named Ganondorf is the human form of Ganon, one of the dark gods from the dawn of time' written underneath a giant engraving of an evil pig.

You really need something like that in TP, because Ganon's pretty underdeveloped in that game. They don't even set up the fact that sometimes he's a giant pig. I'd hate to be a newcomer to the series getting to the part where he transforms, it would be confusing as hell. Especially since he just transforms back again right after it.