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B coma .
Joined: 06 Dec 2005 Posts: 279
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Man, I never even thought about the possibility of a flight stick. neat!
To do air spins you have to turn the remote back and forth as you would normally steer, only more quickly with the "1" button held down. If you find the right rhythm you can chain multiple spins together. |
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Nana Komatsu weak sauce
Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1293
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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DaleNixon wrote: | http://www.truedoogie.com/ETFinalreally.mov
Watching this there's no way I can't feel the froth. |
I knew nothing about Excite Truck before but watching that I did get very excited! It's Burnout + SSX? |
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B coma .
Joined: 06 Dec 2005 Posts: 279
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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I would say Burnout + Jet Moto |
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Tim .
Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 54 Location: Millersville, MD
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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kirkjerk wrote: |
Yeah, from the tutorials, I cannot figure out how to get the Air Spin...
I don't know if they did this for the WarioWare starfox, but I *really* hope they use the Wii-mote upright as a flightstick if/when they do StarFoxWii... Monkey Ball has a submarine game that did that, and it felt *perfect*. |
The Air Spin in Excite Truck is hard to pull off consistently. You have to hold the brake (1) button and quickly tilt the controller hard to the left or right. Like 90 degrees almost.
Edit: yeah, what B coma said.
Monkey Ball has a lot of brilliant control schemes in its party games! I'm surprised at how perfect they control, too. Like the ones where you hold the remote and nunchuck vertically and control them like two Virtual-On style joysticks, or a dual-handed flight stick (in the bird race one where you fly through the rings).
You can see for a split second in that Wario Ware vid before the boss fight that it shows a picture of the remote being held sideways. I really liked that, but if in a future Starfox they also gave you the option to use it as a flight stick, that would be cool too.
I hope that more Wii games give us alternate control options ala Metal Glug 6. |
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Scratchmonkey .
Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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Which is of course a remake of Tapper using Metal Slug sprites. |
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Dracko .
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Metal Slug Anthology is currently the only Wii game that has me interested, along with No More Heroes. _________________ "This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
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D-A-I-S .
Joined: 26 Nov 2006 Posts: 123
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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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You know what would have been a great mode for Warioware Wii? An "expert" mode where there's no intermissions between games, and the instructions for the game after the one you're currently playing are told to you by the speaker in the remote.
Or did they have that idea already? |
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Scratchmonkey .
Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1439
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:04 am Post subject: |
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D-A-I-S wrote: | You know what would have been a great mode for Warioware Wii? An "expert" mode where there's no intermissions between games, and the instructions for the game after the one you're currently playing are told to you by the speaker in the remote.
Or did they have that idea already? |
This, minus the speaker part, was actually theorized as the "correct" version of Warioware by aderack and other anti-Warioware folks on the old boards (one iteration before the clambake, IIRC). |
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player 2 .
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:07 am Post subject: |
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helicopterp wrote: | I didn't see anything wrong with what you wrote, Player 2, but that barrier in most videogames really doesn't bother me as much.
I guess a better way to say this would be: That people who don't play videogames don't immediately understand how to work a lot of the interactions is not a problem. There's a degree of vocabulary to understand in terms of how input works within the playing-the-game interface, and I think it's natural that there is a period during which a new player or someone new to the medium in general is still trying to figure things out. I'm okay with videogames--individually--only being accessible to those willing to put in the effort to understand how to work them. In fact, I think that the process of learning how a certain videogame works with our input is essential to the medium.
Hey, I want to talk this out, because I'm just putting together for the first time some of the thoughts I just typed. |
Well, I know that you find it OK to play a game like old Wario Ware because you find it OK to speak the videogame language because you have found it OK to speak the videogame language before. But why do you think that everyone need to know the same game language that gamers use just to enjoy a product? I mean, *we don't lose anything* by having Wario Ware brought to the Wii outside of inaccessability.
That sounds like a good thing to me.
* - if the only thing cross pad controls dictate is a videogame button pressing language (o-rama) and that language can be replaced entirely by more common/natural language (i.e. gestures)... well... The Economist would say to use the more common language... and that's pretty cool, i think. _________________ Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
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Tim .
Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 54 Location: Millersville, MD
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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Scratchmonkey wrote: |
Which is of course a remake of Tapper using Metal Slug sprites. |
Whoops! Actually that would be awesome. |
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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Dracko wrote: | Metal Slug Anthology is currently the only Wii game that has me interested, along with No More Heroes. |
Why would the Wii version have you any more interested than the PS2 version? Though who can blame you for your interest in Heroes. _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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dmauro .
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 303 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Shapermc wrote: | Dracko wrote: | Metal Slug Anthology is currently the only Wii game that has me interested, along with No More Heroes. |
Why would the Wii version have you any more interested than the PS2 version? Though who can blame you for your interest in Heroes. |
Better dpad? |
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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But there aren't enough buttons. _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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Dracko .
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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I like how the Wii version has no many planned alternatives for the controller.
Not that I can say how the remote feels held, but the PS2's controller has always been iffy in the first place. _________________ "This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
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Pijaibros .
Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 342 Location: Mistake by the Lake
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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Ya know, I didn't think about that button issue till now.
There's at least 3 basic functions and then then 4th is a "bonus" button, no? Jump, Bomb, Shoot and then D is Suicide/Weapon Swap or something.
Think you'll be forced to use one of those wacky control schemes? It still doesn't have VC controller support, right? Or was that fixed with the delay this game had for whatever reason? |
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Shapermc Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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You're supposed to juke the controller to throw the bomb. Or at least that's what I've been lead to believe. I also heard it was playable with the GC controller, so I got a hori-pad which solves that problem. But I have a saturn pad for the PS2 which is even better. _________________ “The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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Dracko .
Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Shapermc wrote: | You're supposed to juke the controller to throw the bomb. Or at least that's what I've been lead to believe. |
And that's not all! _________________ "This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!" |
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Nana Komatsu weak sauce
Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1293
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Dracko wrote: | Shapermc wrote: | You're supposed to juke the controller to throw the bomb. Or at least that's what I've been lead to believe. |
And that's not all! |
That was interesting but I don't think I'd want to actually play the game with any of those control styles. |
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helicopterp .
Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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player 2 wrote: | helicopterp wrote: | I didn't see anything wrong with what you wrote, Player 2, but that barrier in most videogames really doesn't bother me as much.
I guess a better way to say this would be: That people who don't play videogames don't immediately understand how to work a lot of the interactions is not a problem. There's a degree of vocabulary to understand in terms of how input works within the playing-the-game interface, and I think it's natural that there is a period during which a new player or someone new to the medium in general is still trying to figure things out. I'm okay with videogames--individually--only being accessible to those willing to put in the effort to understand how to work them. In fact, I think that the process of learning how a certain videogame works with our input is essential to the medium.
Hey, I want to talk this out, because I'm just putting together for the first time some of the thoughts I just typed. |
Well, I know that you find it OK to play a game like old Wario Ware because you find it OK to speak the videogame language because you have found it OK to speak the videogame language before. But why do you think that everyone need to know the same game language that gamers use just to enjoy a product? I mean, *we don't lose anything* by having Wario Ware brought to the Wii outside of inaccessability.
That sounds like a good thing to me.
* - if the only thing cross pad controls dictate is a videogame button pressing language (o-rama) and that language can be replaced entirely by more common/natural language (i.e. gestures)... well... The Economist would say to use the more common language... and that's pretty cool, i think. |
Okay, let's see what I can do with this. Before I get started, I just want to make sure you know that I am not anti-WarioWare on the Wii at all: I started this thread because I thought it looked fantastic. Also, I haven't played any WarioWare game ever, so I don't have the experience with a more traditional control scheme. My original post about the question of accessibility was really a much more general idea than it was specifically related to this game.
Now that that's out of the way, I first want to re-iterate that I think the only aspect in which this kind of accessibility really matters is for sales. You talked about people being able to enjoy a product they previously were not able to enjoy, and that notion has a great spirit both of capitalism and of sharing/inclusiveness/I'mnotreallysurewhattocallit. But discounting games with really unnecessarily convoluted control schemes--I'm looking at you, Psychonauts--a learning curve just doesn't strike me as anything that harms the medium. Maybe the translation of d-pad directions isn't absolutely comprehensible to someone who hasn't built up a playing-videogames-vocabulary, but it isn't impossible to learn for anyone willing to put in a few minutes to figure it out, or willing to listen to somebody who has played before. I feel like that kind of barrier exists in all media. A broad comparison to make would be that someone interested in reading should learn how to read first. I'm not convinced that control schemes as they are are all that difficult to tackle, you just have to actually want to play the game. If you aren't interested, then making the effort to figure out what a d-pad is is not a top priority for you. I probably sound like an elitist for this stance, but exclusion just makes sense to me if a person doesn't really want to be included. _________________ Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one. |
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kirkjerk .
Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1227
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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The "language of the D-pad" idea is interesting, but consider this:
In 80%+ of the games on the Wii, there is still a mapping required between gesture and in-game action. Waggling a controller is not the same as swinging a sword all around you; tipping a controller is only somewhat the same as moving a steering wheel, letting go of a button is not the same as releasing a bowling ball (though some of the other games require even less mapping...)
So, then, the controllers matter in terms of non-gamer-friendliness in 2 ways:
1. when the game is such that the controller needs next to no mapping, ala Wii Tennis
2. because it's just satisfying and cool to use a whole arm or even body instead of just fingers
So in those cases where mapping is needed, the controllers can be even MORE difficult, because they have more degrees of freedom...
An NES pad speaks u/d/l/r , b, a, select, and start. I know that anything beyond that, control wise, can't be said, and I generally won't need to search for more vocabulary.
A GC controller has 2 things moving, 7 buttons, and some scrunchy-click buttons. Still, the vocabulary is rather limited.
A Wii controller, though lends itself to so many patterns... even if you can argue that there are X degrees of motion, and a "pointer" function, and that's it, the fact is they are closer to a glossary of usable gestures that previous controllers don't have, at least without specific combos like UUDDLRLRBAstart. *so for those games requiring mapping, they are not neccesarily a novie-friendly-win* |
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player 2 .
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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@ helicopterp
Read James Paul Gee's What Videogames Have to Teach Us About Learning and Literacy to get the real scoop at what I'm going to try to say because I'm sure I'm going to fuck it up. But I'll try.
Videogames all have a language. All activities do, actually. The example he uses is about point basketball. A guard puts up two fingers and then passes the ball. The two fingers signal a play call and the passing is really a specific kind of throw. If you were to just parse the sentence with a dictionary and no previous experience, you'd never fully understand the sentence. But if you understand sports you'd have a better understanding of what's going on.
Videogames, insofarasnow, treat inputs as verbs, player characters as subjects, the world fills in the details, and that's how they tell their story. The sentences they make, insofarasnow, are really simple. Man on a skateboard jumps over the gap.
When we decide to have WarioWare (or any game for that matter) use buttons (abstractions) over something like gestures (something more natural*)... all we're doing is adding a level of abstraction. And even though abstractions are really just language (especially when combined with rules like videogames usually are), Plato might still have a fit. I mean, really... it's abstraction for abstraction's sake.
Not saying button pressing is the wrong method or anything, it's just... self important.
*-it would be unfair to say that gestures aren't abstractions as well, but I think it's fair to say there are levels to abstraction and the level gestures are sits above the level buttons are.
@ kirkjerk
I tend to agree with you. The language of input for older games is really simple. I think the Joystick did a lot to change that (because directions make more sense in translating directions than A and B). Nintendo was onto this when they made the L/R buttons. Maybe. But they were really onto this when they made the Wii. Gestures just make sense because they're so natural to us. When you see Mario gesture the story of what happened at Bowser's castle in Super Mario RPG... well... that's a good example of gestures being universal. _________________ Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp
Last edited by player 2 on Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kirkjerk .
Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1227
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Tim wrote: | The Air Spin in Excite Truck is hard to pull off consistently. You have to hold the brake (1) button and quickly tilt the controller hard to the left or right. Like 90 degrees almost.
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Oh I get it. Actually the diagram is misleading... it's showing how to waggle the Wii-mote but the guy's hands are still on the gas button (2) not the required (1). |
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dessgeega loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 6563 Location: bohan
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Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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i totally wrote about abstraction and context in warioware for issue 8, but issue 8 isn't out yet. i do touch upon how the arbitrariness of sports (the abstract rules that govern play) are easily translatable to the videogame and how warioware does just that. abstraction is the language through which the player and game communicate, and these abstractions are dressed up in context to provide meaning.
i've also written that the wii remote is going to be essential to expanding the audience of videogames beyond twenty-year-olds who played mario when they were little. warioware wii will be an interesting project, i guess. _________________
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player 2 .
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:39 am Post subject: |
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dess, didn't we disagree all the time like five minutes ago? _________________ Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
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helicopterp .
Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:20 am Post subject: |
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dessgeega wrote: | i do touch upon how the arbitrariness of sports (the abstract rules that govern play) are easily translatable to the videogame |
Fun!
You did a fine job making sense, Player 2. I'll probably still try to track down that book and read it, though.
I still can't make myself want to divorce the abstraction from the interface, though. Building a vocabulary and familiarizing yourself with context is alright with me. The guard in the basketball game holds up either one or two fingers, and someone who really follows basketball and understands what various plays mean in context of the game will really understand and probably enjoy understanding what they see more than somebody who doesn't. I think that that's how it should work. I think control is a problem when the input doesn't work with the audio-visual feedback, i.e. a convoluted control scheme. As long as there is consistency and relevance within the context of one game though, any abstraction necessary to play it should just be part of the learning process, so that in itself the abstraction isn't a weakness to the game in question or to the genre of videogames.
On this note, what are some Wii games in which the new input really doesn't work as well? And on the other hand, something like Twilight Princess doesn't use the new controller for gesture mapping at all, but I think its controls still work very well in that game's own unique context.
Also, you mentioned The Economist and Plato at the end of each of your last two posts. I am not overly familiar with either: how do they tie in? _________________ Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one. |
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player 2 .
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:20 am Post subject: |
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Plato's argument against the arts is that they are an abstraction removed from perfection and as such are worthless (or at the very least worth less than the real thing). The argument has to do with the idea of perfect forms and artists' inability to ever really achieve these forms. Why draw a picture of a chair when you can make a real chair*?
It's really kind of silly when you step back from the argument. What he's really saying is that bullshit for bullshit's sake is, well, bullshit. That's totally understandable. 90% of artists' worth their salt today (or throughout time) never really just did bullshit for bullshit's sake unless they were from the Baroque period** in which case it was very important to bullshit because, well, it was impossible to important otherwise.
And going back to the chair example - today, a lot of artists make a lot of chairs. So. Plato was right. Imagine the Platonic argument against the arts as merely setting a higher standard. When I criticize my own art, that's how I do it...
The Economist reference was just me name dropping. It's a good publication that not a lot of people read. It's kind of like the NYTimes in that it's really good and written by a bunch of intelligent people with a lot of intelligent content (not to say they tip the scales in any way...). The thing that I like about it is that it's accessable even though its content is highly intelligent. Read its style guide. It's kind of really good. Which is weird. Because it's a writing style guide.
*- While any chair you can make is removed from the perfect ideal of a chair, the artists' representation of a chair is at least one more level removed from that. If the artists' intent was merely to show someone a beautiful chair - well, why not show them a real beautiful chair instead of a picture?
**- The Baroque period followed quickly (although not immediately) after the High Renaissance. As art is concerned the Renaissance is an interesting period when art realizes its potential. It is when art schools form, theory becomes structured, and the great masters really master art. It's like playing basketball after Michael Jordan. Sure, you can still be great and maybe even be better than MJ, but it's hard to impress (LeBron James is having a hell of a time out-celebritying MJ despite being so much better so much earlier in his career). If the sports analogy doesn't work for you, then imagine Baroque artists as the first punk rockers - except they were actually talented.
Sorry for the stupid long academic answer to your simple question. I just thought I should explain myself because they were stupid references I made in the first place. _________________ Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
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helicopterp .
Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:47 am Post subject: |
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player 2 wrote: | Read its style guide. It's kind of really good. Which is weird. Because it's a writing style guide. |
I found this style guide useful, self-congratulatory, clever, and, at times, pompous.
The page on metaphors is great!
The page on Americanisms is condescending and conservative.
And I think Plato's idea of what art aspires to is bullshit. I'll take a twice-removed chair any day.
LeBron James blows my mind, and the sports metaphor works better for me than the punk-rock metaphor. I am fairly aware of the general timeline for periods of art, and only a little less aware of the general ideas behind the movements, but I am curious as to what it is about the Renaissance that makes you elevate it the way you do. Personally, I couldn't tell you which periods I prefer to others, or that I think are better than others, but I get the impression that you study art in some capacity at school, so I want to hear what you think. _________________ Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: |
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plato's response to the arts is a bit more nuanced than just why bother. you see the full scope of this engagement (or pathology?) in the republic.
good call on the economist, but it's circulation is over 1 million a week, from last i heard. that's pretty hoooge. i convinced shaper to get a sub! _________________
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player 2 .
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: |
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dhex wrote: | plato's response to the arts is a bit more nuanced than just why bother. you see the full scope of this engagement (or pathology?) in the republic.
good call on the economist, but it's circulation is over 1 million a week, from last i heard. that's pretty hoooge. i convinced shaper to get a sub! |
Compared to the NYTimes? Also, Plato's argument pretty much sucks. I bet ants would really love it, though.
@ helicopterp
The reason why I like the Renaissance is that it's so much more intelligent than any period before it (even the Classical period). The Renaissance brought mathematics and geometry and human psychology into the world of decoration. What was once just asskissing to people with money turned into a technical field all its own. People other than the patrons themselves began to revere artists for their work.
That and its just pretty.
I think what helped me appreciate the Renaissance the best was learning about art before the Renaissance. It solved all of my criticisms of Midieval Art. How stupid is it to make people larger because they're more important? How stupid is it to paint all of the saints in gold because they're more valuable? That's not to say that these techniques aren't-in-use/can't-be-used-well today, but it makes artists before the Renaissance seem infantile. I appreciate maturity, I guess. _________________ Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
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helicopterp .
Joined: 13 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:55 am Post subject: |
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Nice answer!
Hey, we managed to have a good discussion about all of that. I'm going to pat everyone who participated on the back, if I ever see any of you. _________________ Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one. |
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dhex Breeder
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 6319 Location: brooklyn, Nev Yiork
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Compared to the NYTimes? |
no, compared to other magazines and weekly publications. 1 million is just the print number, not online subscriptions, nexis-lexis searches, etc.
Quote: | Also, Plato's argument pretty much sucks. I bet ants would really love it, though. |
i'm not a huge fan of plato in this regard myself, or in many other regards for that matter. but it is more nuanced than that, and the republic goes in-depth into why the arts are dangerous to civil society, which is another angle i deeply disagree with him on. but it's far more than a metaphysical objection. _________________
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player 2 .
Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Madison, WI USA
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:18 am Post subject: |
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Well, yeah. On both accounts. _________________ Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
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