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Scratchmonkey
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Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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 Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Arguing whether it's a flaw or a question of taste probably isn't going to go anywhere, considering that aside from extreme examples, you're not really going to be able to separate the two. |
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Dracko
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Joined: 10 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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I see it as a flaw when a game isn't immediately compulsive. It can't afford the same kind of build-up that a film or novel can. It has to be fun from the moment it's picked up.
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shnozlak
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Joined: 05 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Try riding the horse full speed into a stand of tree without giving him any reign input. Notice how the horse doesn’t hit any trees. I think that’s pretty awesome…
| shnozlak wrote: | | Dracko wrote: | | I could easily disagree with any of those. |
Well sure, you could construct contridictory sentences to anything a person would say, but not without being unreasonable. |
| Dracko wrote: | makes some examples...
So why the Hell shouldn't someone be able to enjoy a game by rushing through it if that's what they see fit? |
To the examples: You friend doesn’t appreciate the characteristics of wine that make it not cheap vodka. Lolita may be an exception, though or it only demonstrates lack of imagination on your friend’s part. I like music while I work too but I can’t appreciate intricacies of better recording/composition while distracted. You make poor theater/movie choices or live in an area full of loud or smelly people. Flights are loud and often contain babies.
They should, we should all be free to ruin things. It just isn’t a very good idea.
Sorry, I’ll stop now. I only posted to make the point about the horse.
Also: Yes a game should be fun from onset!
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Scratchmonkey
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Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | I see it as a flaw when a game isn't immediately compulsive. It can't afford the same kind of build-up that a film or novel can. It has to be fun from the moment it's picked up. |
Well, that's still a matter of subjectivity because what you find "fun" might not be what other people find "fun", which is why I always inwardly groan when I read the word in a videogame review. Not that it should never be used, it just doesn't convey much information on its own, especially in the context of a statement like "this game is fun".
And while I can see why you'd feel that way, it's also true that most of the games that I like are by necessity of their design, difficult to pick up and take a while for the player to warm up to how the game wants to do things -- i.e. Dwarf Fortress, the Elder Scrolls games, etc., games with (fairly) complex systems that I only really start to enjoy once I've figured out what's going on. So they would be "flawed" in the same way that Tetris would be "flawed" because it doesn't have any engaging deep-level strategies.
That is to say, it depends on what the player is looking for. Which isn't to say that discussion itself is useless because of personal preferences since there's still plenty of room to talk about what you dis/like about a game and talk to people with different opinions and possibly even appreciate what they're trying to say, it's just that most of the time it turns into "OMG no u".
To get back to SotC, my least favorite moment in the game was the small one where you had to climb all the pillars and wait for him to knock them down and they fall in exactly the right way to cause something else to happen, which is similar to many of the complaints that other people had about Ico and the recent Prince of Persias.
Last edited by Scratchmonkey on Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:50 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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internisus
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Joined: 25 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | I see it as a flaw when a game isn't immediately compulsive. |
That just seems close-minded. Many excellent things are not totally engrossing immediately, or even compulsive at any point. That's just what you want. |
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Dracko
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Joined: 10 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| shnozlak wrote: | | To the examples: You friend doesn’t appreciate the characteristics of wine that make it not cheap vodka. Lolita may be an exception, though or it only demonstrates lack of imagination on your friend’s part. I like music while I work too but I can’t appreciate intricacies of better recording/composition while distracted. You make poor theater/movie choices or live in an area full of loud or smelly people. Flights are loud and often contain babies. |
Now who's making examples? The point is: Different strokes for different folks. There's no wrong way to take on the arts. Vodka ain't cheap and there's no right way to drink, for Christ's sake, a book can feel needlessly plodding, and contrarily to popular belief, not obligatorily the best stimulation of the imagination by virtue of being written words, I can notice intricacies in my music while working and as for cinemas, I don't live in bloody NYC. Maybe that makes me and my friend cultural dolts, but somehow I severely doubt it.
| internisus wrote: | | That just seems close-minded. Many excellent things are not totally engrossing immediately, or even compulsive at any point. That's just what you want. |
Or it could be a different way of looking at things, at games. Everyone wants something, and a fair number here seem to insist that playing through Shadow of the Colossus like any other distraction is wrong. Why? Because they don't it any other way.
| Scratchmonkey wrote: | | Well, that's still a matter of subjectivity because what you find "fun" might not be what other people find "fun", which is why I always inwardly groan when I read the word in a videogame review. Not that it should never be used, it just doesn't convey much information on its own, especially in the context of a statement like "this game is fun". |
If we left it at simple subjectivity, we wouldn't go much anywhere. And that's kind of my point: There's no wrong in expecting a game to deliver from the moment you turn on your console, especially if it's an action-adventure game. It's easy to be leniant about strategy or role-playing games because of their nature (Though I'd say that they should still sell themselves the moment they're loaded).
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Hot Stott Bot
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Joined: 25 Nov 2006
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Location: Boston
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| internisus wrote: | | Dracko wrote: | | I see it as a flaw when a game isn't immediately compulsive. |
That just seems close-minded. Many excellent things are not totally engrossing immediately, or even compulsive at any point. That's just what you want. |
| Dracko wrote: | | I see it as a flaw when a game isn't immediately compulsive. |
I think I agree with both of these.
I mean, obviously it is a flaw, but that doesn't change the fact that the non-immediate aspects aren't still really good things. And if, in some cases, that flaw is introduced as a trade-off for something really awesome, which seems like a valid -- maybe even good! -- decision.
Of course, it's not always clear if they're exclusive in a specific case.
I mean, maybe SotC could have retained its long-term benefits while being made more immediately engrossing?
Possibly. If you could imagine transplating the entire SotC experience in some way that pulled you in a little bit more right away, that would probably be a better game.
Either way, all games have flaws, and it is kind of silly to not enjoy (or acknowledge) the rest because you can't look past one of the flaws. |
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internisus
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Joined: 25 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | internisus wrote: | | That just seems close-minded. Many excellent things are not totally engrossing immediately, or even compulsive at any point. That's just what you want. |
Or it could be a different way of looking at things, at games. Everyone wants something, and a fair number here seem to insist that playing through Shadow of the Colossus like any other distraction is wrong. Why? Because they don't it any other way. |
No, it's just pretending that your particular tastes constitute objective criticism. |
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Scratchmonkey
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Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | If we left it at simple subjectivity, we wouldn't go much anywhere. And that's kind of my point: There's no wrong in expecting a game to deliver from the moment you turn on your console, especially if it's an action-adventure game. It's easy to be leniant about strategy or role-playing games because of their nature (Though I'd say that they should still sell themselves the moment they're loaded). |
Obviously there's nothing wrong with it. Same way that there's really nothing wrong with not minding games that take a while to build up or not needing a game to sell itself.
Again, there's still plenty of room for discussion while accounting for individual tastes, so recognizing the subjectivity of the experience is not as much of a dialogue-killer as it would seem. |
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Lackey
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Joined: 11 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If we left it at simple subjectivity, we wouldn't go much anywhere. And that's kind of my point: There's no wrong in expecting a game to deliver from the moment you turn on your console, especially if it's an action-adventure game. It's easy to be leniant about strategy or role-playing games because of their nature (Though I'd say that they should still sell themselves the moment they're loaded). |
Shadow of the Collosus is pretty transparent about its' intent; I don't think you'd be expected an action-packed fast paced game if you watched even a few seconds of that intro. Is genre really that determining of a characteristic when it comes to games? Really the characterisitcs that make up genre are just the most obvious, mechanical ones and really don't touch on the content (I guess "survival-horror" is a rare exception, if you consider it a real genre).
I tend to agree that the preferred way of playing is up to the player though.
edit: Dracko's been double-quoted!
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somewhere_else
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Joined: 29 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | I see it as a flaw when a game isn't immediately compulsive. It can't afford the same kind of build-up that a film or novel can. It has to be fun from the moment it's picked up. |
There seems to be an assumption underlying some of the arguments you and a few others are making. That is that a perfect piece of art would appeal to everyone in the same way, and have an equally maximal appeal to each of them. I don't think that everyone here agrees on that point.
Regarding my personal experience with the game, I saw it very early on as a "Type B" game, and realized that anyone who approached it with a "Type A" personality would find it horribly boring or frustrating. Taking a relaxed approach to progress, I enjoyed myself very much. The only colossus I recall having trouble finding was the sixth. I spent so much time wandering the northwestern canyons that I shied away from them for the rest of the game, even when I was taking the time to methodically explore the rest of the map. The most frustration the game actually delivered to me was when fighting the colossi themselves (or during time attack). |
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Dracko
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| internisus wrote: | | No, it's just pretending that your particular tastes constitute objective criticism. |
Oh dear, I must be utterly in the wrong then, philistine that I am. So is Ketch objectively wrong for playing the game the way he sees fit? Is it objective then to assume that it's natural that the gameplay's promise doesn't add up with the narration or ambience?
| Lackey wrote: | | I tend to agree that the preferred way of playing is up to the player though. |
Which is what it boils down to. But then again, it doesn't matter how hard a game, film, whatever, attempts to set up its intent or mood if in the end of the day, it presents discrepancies with its pace or direction.
| Quote: | | Same way that there's really nothing wrong with not minding games that take a while to build up or not needing a game to sell itself. |
There's a difference between build-up and seeming off from the start, though. Ketch has complained about the controls, for instant. It doesn't matter how good your game is, without adequate control, it's nothing. That he doesn't relate to the tale told, well, that's a different (non)-issue altogether. The kind of sale I'm talking about is the pure gameplay. I've gone through a number of broken games just for their plot or feel, but that doesn't make them any less broken.
| somewhere_else wrote: | | There seems to be an assumption underlying some of the arguments you and a few others are making. That is that a perfect piece of art would appeal to everyone in the same way, and have an equally maximal appeal to each of them. I don't think that everyone here agrees on that point. |
Lord no. That's never likely to happen. But it isn't very useful to dismiss those who don't see the appeal as oddball cretins either, especially when they still attempt to go through it their own way.
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dessgeega
loves your favorite videogame
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| internisus wrote: | | P.S. I wonder how, precisely, the man makes his living. |
he codes for redcap.
P.S. other peoples' experiences are just as valid as yours!
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!=
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| Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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I remember having mentioned on some insertcredit thread that I believed Shadow of The Colossus to be much more of a Role Playing Game than JRPGs ever aspired or managed to be. You have to really get in the character's role to have enough drive to push forward in the adventure. You have to live the struggle, and the moments of despair. (I say that as a person that criticizes movies for pushing pathos over yourself)
The moments where the character is supposed to wonder whether what he is doing is really right are really important: the game tries to make you play the role, as it punishes you for not having wanda's motivations.
Which does not forbid people to actually ride eagles or explore the castle's hidden garden, in a sandbox, out of character kind of fashion.
(About the role playing elements: maybe (just maybe) the character's reactions, his struggle on the back of a colossus probably aimed at first to be the only feedback you have.. It would have been a failure, as being too impractical. Shadow of The Colossus is still pretty much a video game in how the drama is often separate from the gameplay elements)
Last edited by != on Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Lockeownzj00
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:03 am Post subject: |
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Dracko: why are you all in a tizzy about the word "right?" There's an obvious goal here--someone is clearly asking for any justifiable reason to enjoy this experience.
Listen: anyone can play hitman and play through the entire game guns blazing. Every mission then takes approximately 60 seconds to 2 minutes to complete, that way. The game is then nothing but a glorified sandbox of NPCs walking around waiting to become corpses. Playing through the game this way, then criticizing its lack of depth is hardly a flaw of the art itself. It doesn't matter if nobody 'said' anything; if you can't understand where the gratifying and meticulous experience is in Hitman, not only are you oblivious, but you shouldn't be playing it.
If you play GTA and, instead of completing any of the missions, decide to play as if you were an utterly law-abiding citizen, and subsequently criticize the game, its creators, and its reputation for not being engaging, you are still the problem, not the art. Breaking a game through its own interactivity is just a byproduct of giving players any amount of freedom. Someone who does this and maintains that the game has no merit is, in fact, missing the point. In this abstract sense, they are "wrong." I don't think anyone needs irreverent diatribes about how nothing can "really be" wrong, since that's not what's being discussed.
This isn't ragging on peoples' "personal styles" so much as it is pitying peoples' perfunctory decisions that ruin an experience for them. The point you bring up is related to a much greater, very important concept: art in context, and its personal impact in each circumstance. It's something I've been thinking about a lot lately, as well. But this is a misapplication of that concept. |
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internisus
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Joined: 25 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| dessgeega wrote: | | internisus wrote: | | P.S. I wonder how, precisely, the man makes his living. |
he codes for redcap.
P.S. other peoples' experiences are just as valid as yours! |
Oh.
Re: not if they're the wrong ones! |
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Scratchmonkey
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Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| Lockeownzj00 wrote: | | If you play GTA and, instead of completing any of the missions, decide to play as if you were an utterly law-abiding citizen |
As a tangent, I actually really like to play GTA this way. |
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oligophagy
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Joined: 26 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| I like to obey the traffic laws and then get indignant when the AI drivers break them. |
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dessgeega
loves your favorite videogame
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| internisus wrote: | | Re: not if they're the wrong ones! |
pro-tip: you can't have a wrong experience.
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Scratchmonkey
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:07 am Post subject: |
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| oligophagy wrote: | | I like to obey the traffic laws and then get indignant when the AI drivers break them. |
Oh yes. Careening around the city causing destruction can be fairly amusing; it has nothing on sitting at a red light and watching AI cars smash into each other and then devolve into a fist-fight between the drivers, all while you sit there and say "My stars!". |
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internisus
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Joined: 25 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| dessgeega wrote: | | internisus wrote: | | Re: not if they're the wrong ones! |
pro-tip: you can't have a wrong experience. |
I think I'll be having a wrong experience if I continue to debate this! |
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dessgeega
loves your favorite videogame
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:32 am Post subject: |
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i think we all will!
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internisus
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Joined: 25 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:45 am Post subject: |
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I win, then. Very well!
Seriously, to look at where the thread has gone and examples of behaving in GTA3, of all games, I understand the point that you can step outside boxes and enjoy unorthodox styles of play and so on. I know I've seen whole threads dedicated to stories about playing games in ways that you know were not intended. But that's exactly my argument. You're interacting with the game in a way that was not intended. It may be within the realm of what is possible within the game, but in the case of obeying traffic signals in GTA3 or using an FAQ to find each colossus in SotC, there isn't a single murky question as to whether your approach was intended by the designer, and thus you can't make a valid criticism about the experience the designer created for you. I'm not saying that those "wrong" experiences themselves are invalid; have your fun however you like. I'm just saying that you have a certain responsibility to recognize your deviation for what it is.
I still feel dismayed at the whole guide thing, and I still think it is an entirely defensible reaction. I'm not going to press that anymore. I guess what I'm trying to get across instead is less about me and more of a "warning". If Ketch plays with that guide and finds his emotional connection to the game lacking, he really can't blame the game outright. That's that. Would anyone disagree with that? |
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Ketch
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Joined: 17 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| internisus wrote: | | If Ketch plays with that guide and finds his emotional connection to the game lacking, he really can't blame the game outright. That's that. Would anyone disagree with that? |
Yes, I would :  What I was saying at the start of the topic was that I didn't find the game particularly enjoyable(up to that point in the game, the Electric Eel but was willing to keep playing it). Not only was the travelling part utterly boring- but the colossus fights weren't very exciting either. (I view the first seven collossi as being essentially tutorials.). I only used the guide after about the sixth colossus getting lost in the northeastern mountains was awful. And reading things like go to the beam but turn left at the first bridge doesn't affect your ability to be emotionally manipulated by the forboding / lush colour pallette of the landscapes.
It may be your opinion that I didn't "get" what they intended- but do we know what they actually intended? Could it be that finding the landscape beautiful, but depressing was INTENDED. And this helps to give the ending more emotional impact as you can empathise with the character's fates.
When it comes to it I am very patient with games (stealth games are some of my favourite, but I didn't find the landscapes entertaining enough to merit getting lost on the way to every colossus.). Edit: And in games like Hitman 2, I try to play properly stealthily even though the game is harder to do this way. You can't say that I didn't give SOTC a chance on this front, I just made a judgement over what I find entertaining in games. (Puzzles, rather than half-hour rides on a horse)
I completed it yesterday, and was quite impressed with it. The second half was more entertaining than the first half though. |
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Lackey
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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I wish they'd put in an alternate ending where wander just leaves the valley and never comes back. You can climb all the way back to the gate, after all.
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Mister Toups
Hates your favorite videogame
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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internisus I used gamefaqs for a few of the colossi, do you hate me too?
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chompers po pable
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Joined: 10 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| not inordinantly. |
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Scratchmonkey
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| The fact that intern believes that you can actually determine the intent of the creators of the game through playing it is a good indication that this was never going to go anywhere. |
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crispus attucks jr
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Joined: 27 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Scratchmonkey wrote: | | The fact that intern believes that you can actually determine the intent of the creators of the game through playing it is a good indication that this was never going to go anywhere. |
Well I'm pretty sure the designers never intended you to go to gamefaqs.
That said, the game sure does beg for it some times. While the game is very pretty and I really like the sheer spectacle of it all (PS: SotC is pop music if anything, antitype), but it can be hell of frustrating. I managed to find my way around pretty much fine, but on some of the colossus fights I'm sure that consulting a guide did less to RUIN THE AMBIENCE or whatever the fuck people are calling it than would struggling for an additional hour with obtuse, gamey puzzles. |
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Lockeownzj00
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Joined: 16 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The fact that intern believes that you can actually determine the intent of the creators of the game through playing it is a good indication that this was never going to go anywhere. |
I'm not sure what we're supposed to derive from this. "It's impossible to logically determine the author's intent through the patterns and design of their creations?" Hm. Methinks that doesn't really work. Debasing the thread based on that line of logic = bloobidy.
Bloobidy being an all-encompassing 'no-no.' |
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Scratchmonkey
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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Nah, you really can't determine the intent of the creator through the text. I'm pretty firmly with the post-structuralists on that one (mainly because there's no way to determine whether it's the creator's biases or your own biases). That isn't to say that you can't make a decent argument as to why you think the text "should be" experienced a certain way; it's just not viable to try and cite authorial authority to do so.
That said, my statement was a bit of dirty pool and I should knock that off. |
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Dracko
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Joined: 10 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Lockeownzj00 wrote: | | This isn't ragging on peoples' "personal styles" so much as it is pitying peoples' perfunctory decisions that ruin an experience for them. |
So, wait, Hitman lets me go through a level killing everything in sight? GTA, a sandbox game, might I add, lets me act like a law abiding citizen? This is all in the design, you know? It's not breaking the game or going against its mechanics. If it wants to translate an experience oh-so desperately, then it should make the effort to portray what it wants to portray.
You know what game I dislike? Deus Ex. Even when I play it in Realistic mode, I can go in guns blazing, because that's the only way to get any thrill out of it. The intended A.I. setup makes stealth a tedious ordeal. Does this take away from the experience? At a guess, no.
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vision
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Dracko
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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IMHO
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Lockeownzj00
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Nah, you really can't determine the intent of the creator through the text. |
Sigh. Yes, I'm sure many things are just so darn ambiguous that the meaning and intention are lost to time. But, 90% of the time, we have the indirect logic to figure out these kinds of things. When a Spike Lee movie has a scene with a kid playing GTA in it, my logically derived conclusion that 'Spike Lee, being who he is, is probably using that scene to make some kind of a social statement' isn't far-fetched or difficult to grasp. It's...logical. Most of the time, through some means or another, you can figure it out. The creators aren't these nebulous demigods with the power to cloud your mind over this sort of thing.
| Quote: | | So, wait, Hitman lets me go through a level killing everything in sight? GTA, a sandbox game, might I add, lets me act like a law abiding citizen? This is all in the design, you know? It's not breaking the game or going against its mechanics. |
Your argument is disingenuous. As I said, it is a byproduct of giving the player any amount of freedom. In Mario Tennis, I can easily run off to the side and hump the audience every round. I won't be experiencing the game as the authors intended me to. This isn't ambiguous or difficult to divine. What you're saying only works in a fraction of the cases and only sounds nice when it's abstract.
Yes, Hitman is a stealth game and the meat of the experience is playing through it stealthily. Like I said, by playing through the game like Serious Sam, you will hate the game because there is nothing to it. You are not playing the game as it is intended to be played. Criticising the game based on this experience alone is short-sighted and condescending.
| Quote: | | If it wants to translate an experience oh-so desperately, then it should make the effort to portray what it wants to portray. |
Oh, give me a break. Yeah, Hitman and GTA give you absolutely no clues as to how you might go about playing the game. It's not like the advertising, story, and overt gameplay mechanics hint you in any one direction. Hitman and GTA do portray "what they want to portray." The "anti-experiences" I described may be enjoyable, but are obviously not the intended format of the game. SoTC does translate an experience. I really don't understand how someone can get lost in that game. I'm sure it's possible. But you can get lost in Mario 64, too, and frankly, it's still. your. fault. |
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Scratchmonkey
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Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Lockeownzj00 wrote: | | Sigh. Yes, I'm sure many things are just so darn ambiguous that the meaning and intention are lost to time. But, 90% of the time, we have the indirect logic to figure out these kinds of things. When a Spike Lee movie has a scene with a kid playing GTA in it, my logically derived conclusion that 'Spike Lee, being who he is, is probably using that scene to make some kind of a social statement' isn't far-fetched or difficult to grasp. It's...logical. Most of the time, through some means or another, you can figure it out. The creators aren't these nebulous demigods with the power to cloud your mind over this sort of thing. |
Well, sure. If things are sufficiently vague or broad, it's pretty easy to say "this is probably an intentional 'message' put in by the director". However, each individual interpretation is going to be different. We may recognize that Spike Lee put in GTA for a reason, that still doesn't meant that we know the precise point that Spike Lee was meaning to make by placing GTA in the movie and there may be several interpretations, each logically valid, that come to different conclusions.
For the third time, I'm not trying to shut down logical arguments based on what occurs in a text, I'm pointing out that there is no objective measure of authorial intent and acting like there is won't lead to a constructive discussion.
(Also, in terms of "bloobidies", typing out "Sigh" to lead off a post isn't exactly a great indicator of acting in good faith.)
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Dracko
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Joined: 10 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Your Mario Tennis example doesn't work. You could do this, but you'd lose the game.
I can rush through Shadow of the Colossus and achieve its ending. I could do the same with Hitman.
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vision
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Joined: 26 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Dracko
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Joined: 10 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Depends on the nature of the game, I suppose.
I severely doubt anyone is going to buy a tennis game, or any other kind of game for that matter, for the sheer and utter joy of being greeted with a Game Over screen.
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helicopterp
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Joined: 13 May 2006
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Location: Philadelphia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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A spoonful of humping the spectators helps the Game Over screen go down.
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vision
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Joined: 26 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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D-A-I-S
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Joined: 26 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | You know what game I dislike? Deus Ex. Even when I play it in Realistic mode, I can go in guns blazing, because that's the only way to get any thrill out of it. The intended A.I. setup makes stealth a tedious ordeal. Does this take away from the experience? At a guess, no. |
Have you tried playing it the IT-HE way? |
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dhex
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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vision
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Joined: 26 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Mr Mustache
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Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 167
Location: Queens
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| Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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The spectator's interpretations of directorial intent are invariably more interesting than the director's intent.
Additionally, many other individual's are involved in the creative process, beyond directors. Why don't we consider their intents?
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extralife
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Joined: 22 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| Because the director's chief task is to cull their talents and desires into an identifiable, focused intent? |
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Mr Mustache
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Joined: 26 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Intense!
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | I can play through any of Valve's games in two ways: Take my time, investigating every corner, totally in character, relying on cover, building up the tension or getting lost in my environment. Or I can rush on through, metaphysically flipping off every NPC I come across, on my little murder high, running and gunning like a lunatic. Is one way better than the other? Perhaps, but both acknowledge the simple fact that I'm in a game. |
In this example you are taking the same route and hitting the same points no matter what you do, so your experience is far more similar between the two examples than with non-valve (i.e. far less linear) games.
Also, Hitman for the 360 was pretty terrible (from playing through the demo).
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Dracko
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Quite, and the game is designed as such. Likewise, in Shadow of the Colossus or Hitman, it's entirely possible to complete the games with different playstyles.
I mean, would you say a speedrun is an incorrect manner of appreciating a game?
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Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Dracko wrote: | | I mean, would you say a speedrun is an incorrect manner of appreciating a game? |
I never said either was more or less correct. I was just pointing out that the straighter the line the more similar the experience no matter what the play style as opposed to a more open enviroment.
I'm just throwing a different wrench in the gears.
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“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
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"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
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