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SOTC - is dull ....
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david
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

antitype wrote:
Actually, I believe they said something more to the effect of, "This will be the last Zelda of this kind for some time," which lead people to believe that SotC had caused them to realize that they needed to go back to the drawing board.


I remember this... while it's likely that Miyamoto and Aonuma were impressed with SotC, and possible that it would cause them to rethink the direction of their Zelda series (particularly with Nintendo's recent focus on simpler games, and the sheer volume of content now expected from a Zelda game), I haven't seen the connection between these events supported. It's just anecdotal.

What conclusion would you draw if you found out that George Bush watched a lady bug crawl over his thumb at lunch on the day he fired Donald Rumsfeld?
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helicopterp
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The lady bug was probably talking to him.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Possibly giving him advice on foreign policy, even.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

david wrote:
What conclusion would you draw if you found out the dems won the houseon the anti-war ticket on the day George Bush fired Donald Rumsfeld?
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Ketch
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update: Ooh, the 8th and 9th colossii are actually quite exciting. I'm using a guide to get to the colossus then working it out on my own.I'm looking forward to seeing the rest. I'll let you know what I think of the rest of the "game".
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internisus
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ketch wrote:
I'm using a guide to get to the colossus


oh god oh my god please make it stop
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Shapermc
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

antitype wrote:
Harveyjames wrote:
internisus wrote:
Oh, it's good. It's really good, and a lot of games could stand to learn from all the things it does right. (I hope the next Zelda is watching.)

Apparently, when SotC was previewed for the first time Miyamoto and Aonuma were sighted watching it. Right after that they released a press statement saying 'We will be resting the Zelda series after Twilight Princess. It will be the last Zelda for a long while'. Hmm.

Actually, I believe they said something more to the effect of, "This will be the last Zelda <i>of this kind</i> for some time," which lead people to believe that SotC had caused them to realize that they needed to go back to the drawing board.

While playing Twilight Princess I noticed quite a few things that felt very SoTC-esque. To say this though don't get the impression that it is a very deep inspiration. Also, I think that the way the "god" in SoTC gives you hints was taken note of by Aonuma and partially transfered to Midna. Though nothing feels like SoTC, so I'm probably reading too much into it.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
While playing Twilight Princess I noticed quite a few things that felt very SoTC-esque. To say this though don't get the impression that it is a very deep inspiration. Though nothing feels like SoTC, so I'm probably reading too much into it.


It is funny - I just started Twilight Princess (just beat the first real "boss") but I'm finding the experience has so many similarities to SoTC except where SoTC excelled in it's minimalism, TP substitutes excess. I guess what I'm striving at articulating is that, to me, TP feels like playing SoTC with "general bad-guys" in addition to the Colossus.

The wolf sequences, which I'm not really hounding on, also feel very similar to Okami - especially when the closed in arena areas appear.

This isn't to say that it isn't fun - on the contrary, I'm loving almost every minute of TP so far - but many aspects of the game feel oddly nostalgic. Truth told, I do feel like it is probably my favourite and the most refined incarnation of Zelda since 1986.

I think TP would be the perfect substitute for anyone who thought there was artistic merit in SoTC but found it too dull to actually be engrossed by.
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extralife
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

internisus wrote:
Ketch wrote:
I'm using a guide to get to the colossus


oh god oh my god please make it stop
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chompers po pable
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

extralife wrote:
internisus wrote:
Ketch wrote:
I'm using a guide to get to the colossus


oh god oh my god please make it stop


i think he's referring to the beam of light that points directly towards the next colossus. you (not gender specific) guys are so pessimistic :majorsadface:

edit)) i need to play beyond good and evil soon because of this thread. vision, you wanna swap beyond good and evil (assuming you have it) for my copy of ico? (i'm really broke, this could work)


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internisus
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no, i think he's referring to a guide.
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extralife
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beyond Good and Evil is worth playing if only for the amazing first ten minutes.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

internisus wrote:
no, i think he's referring to a guide.


well we'll just see about that mr. negative.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, we just will at that.
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vision
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

--

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chompers po pable
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ketch, you're not alone.
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chompers po pable
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vision wrote:
chompers po pable wrote:
i need to play beyond good and evil soon because of this thread. vision, you wanna swap beyond good and evil (assuming you have it) for my copy of ico? (i'm really broke, this could work)


I played a friend's copy of BG&E on the Cube a few years ago, unfortunately. I'd still like to buy it for PS2 eventually. I think a new copy of BG&E sells for less than used Ico these days.


i got my copy of ico for 7 bucks. possibly the best 7 bucks i ever spent.

on videogames Confused
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Shapermc
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

silentmatt wrote:
The wolf sequences, which I'm not really hounding on, also feel very similar to Okami - especially when the closed in arena areas appear.

PUN!

Anyways, they continue to feel less and less like Okami. That said, I don't see how okami could have inspired this, there wasn't enough time.
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Mr. Mechanical
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What does matter if Ketch is using a guide. There's no wrong to play the game so extralife and internisus, you guys need to stop being cockfaces.
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silentmatt
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
silentmatt wrote:
The wolf sequences, which I'm not really hounding on, also feel very similar to Okami - especially when the closed in arena areas appear.

PUN!
Anyways, they continue to feel less and less like Okami. That said, I don't see how okami could have inspired this, there wasn't enough time.


Oh, I wouldn't say they are directly inspired either way (ha, I don't know if the game developers discussed the games they were currently working on... maybe hints through a grape vine).... I'm just saying that, as a gamer, playing through the adventure... thus far the wolf sequence feels like Okami.

That being said, there are significant differences... but I'd be lying if I didn't say that the first time Midna brought out that hand off of the wolf's back to point out a chain didn't feel sort of like the paintbrush in Okami.
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extralife
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Mechanical wrote:
What does matter if Ketch is using a guide. There's no wrong to play the game so extralife and internisus, you guys need to stop being cockfaces.


There is totally a wrong way to play the game ok. If it was a little better maybe there wouldn't be, but you have to meet it half way as things stand.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude, this is the kind of shit that made people despise the ic forums ok. Stop being such a prick about this, it doesn't matter.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I really hope the IC forums come back soon Sad

No offense, extralife. Well, maybe a little.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hate proves love ppl :sunshine:
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

extralife wrote:
Beyond Good and Evil is worth playing if only for the amazing first ten minutes.


QFT. The rest of the game is a big letdown after that. I think I might be the only person who was vaguely offended by the weird racial caricatures (the Rasta rhinos, the "Oriental" shopkeeper, bleh) and I'm continually amazed at how people keep praising the game's story. It's uh, pretty bad, though it is told impressively.

I can see why someone would use a guide to find the Colossi- I resorted to that for at least one of them (I think it was the one in the middle of the lake) because I just got tired of wandering around the same areas over and over not being able to find it (I have a bad sense of direction in real life too). I wouldn't play the whole game that way, though. If you don't like exploring the world of SoTC and enjoying the sights and sounds it offers, that's pretty much half the appeal of the game gone for you.
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internisus
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's perfectly legitimate to feel mildly horrified at the thought of someone using a guide to find the colossi in a game like SotC, whose wonder lies in exploring the landscape as you hunt, only roughly directed by the sword's light. There is nothing wrong with a small outrage over this, as it is indicative of a way of approaching the game that destroys what makes it special on a basic level. It is not cause for a "go back to IC or stop being elitist" outburst.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But maybe it should be.

We're talking about a game here. Do you get infuriated when people watch a cinéma vérité piece with subtitles or read a play while watching it on stage?

If anything, I just think this points out that games still require linearity on a basic level.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

someone's using a guide to help reduce the amount of time spent on the boring portions of a game - important to the game though they may (perhaps) be. this is totally alright. not everyone has a lot of time to spend being bored. people are busy, and have families and friends and loved ones whom they would like to spend time with.

if this really offends you - to the point even of "outrage" - go scream in a pillow for a while. jump up and down and stamp your feet. then come back to the computer and post something civil. there's no reason to make someone feel like an infidel for having priorities other than videogames.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used a guide for Digital Devil Saga.

And Final Fantasy Tactics*.

*-for maps only
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

internisus wrote:
It's perfectly legitimate to feel mildly horrified at the thought of someone using a guide to find the colossi in a game like SotC, whose wonder lies in exploring the landscape as you hunt, only roughly directed by the sword's light. There is nothing wrong with a small outrage over this, as it is indicative of a way of approaching the game that destroys what makes it special on a basic level. It is not cause for a "go back to IC or stop being elitist" outburst.


This isn't a "go back to IC or stop being elitist" outburst. It's a "stop being a fucking prick to people" outburst. It's perfectly possible (and even preferred!) to disagree with someone's sentiments on a game that obviously means so much to you wthout resorting to jackassery.

Shadow of the Colossus might not be Ketch's cup of tea, this much is evidenced by his first post. However, the fact that he is still playing it despite not "getting it" means he is making the effort on his part to understand what people mean when they say the game is "moving the medium forward". Saying that it was Ueda's intent to design a game that causes the player to intentionally be lost is a bit facetious too, as every interview I've read with the guy seems to point in the opposite direction with all his talk about making his games accessible to anyone and everyone from the moment they pick up the controller. You could argue that it was his intent to create a world that a player could lose themselves in, and I would agree with that, but acting like a snob because someone is actually having trouble playing the game and is seeking "outside" help just doesn't fly with me.

Sorry, I'll be the first to jump on the "SotC is moving the medium forward!" bandwagon (and I have!) but I can recognize that not everyone is going to feel the same way, and I'm certainly not going to look down on someone for using a guide for any game no matter how much I might think that it isn't "the right way to play it" or some nonsense.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hm

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zeb nails it, though I totally understand where internisus is coming from.

Also, my favorite part of Beyond Good and Evil is when your photos are broadcast via screens in the city and you feel like you've really played a part in the unfolding of events — you've actually made a mark on the world you've been playing in, and the game acknowledges this. It's sort of the opposite of explicitly breaking the fourth wall, in a way, though a bit similar. I mean, the game never addresses you, the player, but it takes something you did — through Jade — and integrates it meaningfully.

I also really liked the final battle, where the controls are reversed, subverting the flow you've become so comfortable with, and you have to do a mental flip-flop to execute the correct maneuvers.

The part where you fly up the moon was pretty awesome, too.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, why do you need a guide to find the Colossi? How hard is it to follow a straight line?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perseus wrote:
the "Oriental" shopkeeper, bleh


How many times do I have to tell y'all? They prefer the term Walrus sapiens. Come on!


I posted my thoughts on Beyond Good and Evil as I was playing it for the first time a few months ago. It's in a thread here called "taking pictures of animals." I would quote myself or link it up here if I could find it.


So, Perseus, you say you don't get all the praise the game has been getting. Out of curiosity, what kind of praise has it been getting over at insert-credit? I don't recall anyone over here really frothing over it. I probably liked it more than most.


Edit: All of this post is about Beyond Good and Evil, and none of it is about Shadow of the Colossus. Sorry for the ambiguity, folks.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

helicopterp wrote:
I don't recall anyone over here really frothing over it. I probably liked it more than most.

The magazine did put it on the cover for issue 4...
I was also quoted as nominating it for game of the year on mtv.com
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was talking about Beyond Good and Evil, not SotC.

But that does bring back fond memories of reading issue #4!
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, well, in that case, insert credit made a lot of noise about the absense of a French Language option (that was the original language I think) then some people played it and loved it others hated it. Both sides argued.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
Oh, well, in that case, insert credit made a lot of noise about the absense of a French Language option



This sentence has helped me come remarkably close to ascertaining the true definition of 'rock-bottom.'
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

= (
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to weigh in on BG&E for some reason.

I found it to be an exceptionally well crafted game, with a cohesive vision and affectionate attention to detail that's inspiring. Its social message is well made and unusual to find in a video game. It's pretty linear despite the big open world. I mean you are pretty carefully directed through the story, location by location. It's a little narrow and heavy handed for my tastes, but admittedly it does feel close to playing through a movie, and that can be exciting. It's easy, too; it's meant to be played from beginning to end by everyone willing to put in the hours. The whole experience is really smooth and attractive. Again, the craftsmanship is top notch.

Although Jade is a refreshing game heroine, many of the characters are annoying, as is much of the writing. I mean BG&E really would not receive much praise if it were an animated film. I did not understand the ending, and some of the drama was painfully contrived.

BG&E also commits one of the worst sins of the modern cinematic video game: The first interactive moment (following the opening movie) lasts about three seconds before another movie clip takes over. I don't remember exactly what happens, but I think some bad guys are coming out of the sky, disrupting Jade and Pig's morning Tai Chi, challenging their bucolic pacifism -- now you're in control! What do you do? How are you going to cope? You take two steps, and another movie starts. Oh. I don't have to do anything yet, just watch some more. This happens more than once. The only other part that stuck with me as much was flying around in the bay in a really cool plane.

Overall, it deserved a lot more attention than it got, even though its awesomeness is compromised by dumb characters and irritating mishandling of cut scenes. Maybe if I hadn't had a constant feeling that it was aimed at some demographic group of which I'm not a part, I would have had more affection for it. By the end, I was totally impressed with the care and artistry. But I was also bored and a little insulted by the overbearing movie-ness, at the expense of my ability to influence and discover things according to my own whims.

Anybody feel like I did?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, pretty much. BG&E is a game that gets by on being well-crafted and full of heart, making up for its narrative shortcomings. When it succeeds, it succeeds wonderfully (as it does in those parts I wrote about several posts up (to name a few)).

And by the way, I believe the pig's name is Pey'j, but "Jade and Pig" brings to mind a local real estate company called Jade Pig, who took their name from "a souvenir from [a co-founder's] daughter's [1995] trip to China, a pig carved out of jade stone." And 1995 was China's Year of the Pig, "with the pig representing good luck, prosperity and integrity." I wonder if Ancel was aware of this, too, or if it's just a weirdly coincidental pairing of "Jade and Pig"?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other thing I thought BG&E did really well was capturing an atmosphere- to me it felt like Miyazaki plus HL2 (after HL2 came out and I played it, that is), and it really remained consistent throughout. I think it also tapped into that wonder-of-surroundings thing well before SotC, too.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harveyjames wrote:
Wait, why do you need a guide to find the Colossi? How hard is it to follow a straight line?

Well, when that straight line goes through the woods and directs you over an impassable gorge because you didn't know that you needed to take a left before the bridge several hundred meters before, it can get pretty difficult!

My advice on this matter is to only use the guide if you tried to find a colossus and failed because finding them is fun, but not when the guide is misleading (which I found to only happen with one of them). Make sure to find the save point near the colossus in case it kills you because I found that if I didn't save and then died, I wasn't motivated enough to run all the way back to the colossus and just quit playing for a little while.

Other than that the biggest failing with SotC was the final boss. Major problems with how the model worked and so often times I would fall off and feel like the game had cheated to get me off. It took me a long time to get up to the head despite knowing exactly what I needed to do (yeah I eventually checked a guide for this as well and for good reason). The whole process of sneaking up on him was cool, but climbing up him was not so cool (or rather climbing up him for the 50th time wasn't).

Shapermc wrote:
Also, I think that the way the "god" in SoTC gives you hints was taken note of by Aonuma and partially transfered to Midna.

Doesn't the hint system in TP work more less just like it did in OoT and WW (when you cmoplete a dungeon, a diety or someone or something tells you what to do next, and you can always ask your helper if you somehow get stuck or forget)?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wander could totally beat link in a footrace imho uih : \
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bunny mask
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmauro wrote:
Shapermc wrote:
Also, I think that the way the "god" in SoTC gives you hints was taken note of by Aonuma and partially transfered to Midna.

Doesn't the hint system in TP work more less just like it did in OoT and WW (when you cmoplete a dungeon, a diety or someone or something tells you what to do next, and you can always ask your helper if you somehow get stuck or forget)?

No, not at all. Usually large chunks of the game is presented to you and you have to go doing these chunks. Then when you complete a chunk you find out the result of your actions which will lead to another chunk. Well, after a few inital hand-holding sections for the first few hours.

Anyways, I'm more talking about how Zelda use to have it where Link would enter a room and instantly your helper would say something like "we have to get over to that bridge and open that door! I bet we need to find a lever too!" or something. TP stands back a little more and only chimes in if you have failed a few times, but rather than saying "You need thing A to open Door B!" it has a more riddle like quality to it such as SotC.

I think I was refereing to something different than you're talking about though.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmauro wrote:
Other than that the biggest failing with SotC was the final boss. Major problems with how the model worked and so often times I would fall off and feel like the game had cheated to get me off. It took me a long time to get up to the head despite knowing exactly what I needed to do (yeah I eventually checked a guide for this as well and for good reason). The whole process of sneaking up on him was cool, but climbing up him was not so cool (or rather climbing up him for the 50th time wasn't).


Actually, that was one of the parts I remember most fondly. The last colossus took me three hours to beat the first time through. It was probably the most memorable three hours I've ever spent with a video game.

I mean, at that point Ueda pulls out all the emotional stops. At first glance, assessing the situation you're in at the start of that fight, your constant companion Agro is dead, it's storming ferociously, and that colossus is bigger, more godlike, and better protected than any you've faced. He seems to be able to hit you with lightning no matter what you do, and he seems impossible to climb. So it's such a bleak situation... you wonder whether it's even possible to kill it. It's supposed to be a long, difficult, desperate fight. So I think that what you call problems with how the model worked weren't actually problems at all, in the context of the fight, and I'd bet they were probably intentional.

If there were a failsafe path to climb up the 16th colossus, it would seem like just another video game puzzle-boss. But instead, even the best route up won't work every time, and I liked that. It's a boss design halfway between following strict patterns and being some sort of adaptive AI like what people earlier in this thread were arguing for—still pattern-based, but you can't count on the patterns working.


Then again, maybe I'm just being an apologist for bad design.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so was ketch using a guide or not?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kipple wrote:
Then again, maybe I'm just being an apologist for bad design.

Perhaps, but I agree with you.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kipple, I was more specifically referring to when the colossus moves his hands, the way they mesh with the wrists is really crazy such that you sort of glide along the surface, and I found it often resulted in me trying to climb from the bottom part of the hand to the top and getting nowhere at all until I got too tired and fell. It was definitely not a difficulty thing and was more a matter of the game not functioning properly.

You're right about the presentation of the last colossus though. It was fantastic.
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