 |
The Gamer's Quarter
A quarterly publication
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Lockeownzj00
.
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 214
|
 Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
But it doesn't, because most people a) have never heard of it b) even if they did, never use it and c) never even play to the type of intensity and stripped-down mechanics pro games necessitate.
I could execute it about...40-50% of the time. I gotta admit, it's a nice twist to pull in heated battles sometimes. But against someone who's already mastered it? Forget about it. If you don't know it, you don't have a chance...there are videos on youtube of that kind of skill. It's ridonkulous.
Executing it: you do a very light jump (tap x or y) and almost as soon as you do, air dodge diagonally backwards. You slide and as you land are already in poised to attack. It may not seem like much, but like I said: when you get higher up there, you hear talk of "frames--" and shielding/unshielding takes up far more frames than wave-dashing does, which always leaves you at the ready.
Also, Samus has this fucked up super-wave dash (goes along with the super hook, I guess) that sends you flying across half the level, but is much more precise (to the millisecond). That ones just...I don't even know. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
The Great Unwashed
.
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 359
Location: Perth, Western Australia
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Lockeownzj00 wrote: | | Bullshit? I donno. I was never that pro but I got pretty darn close. It sounds like you're calling it bullshit because you can't counter it. Yes, it is an unintentional 'feature' of the game. But the amazing part is that it's still consistent and leads to awesome matches and is hardly unfair if both players know how to do it. |
There's no way to 'counter' dash cancelling. You can't stop a player doing it, much like any of these so-called "advanced techniques", or if you will, glitches, that people go on about, along with terms like "wavedashing", "top tier", "fair", "nair", "dair" and "pillaring".
I meant to write an article about this and sometime eventually I will, but basically, these techniques do not lead to awesome matches. These techniques lead to shit, boring combats, where everybody picks a fast characters and hammers the A button like a bandit.
Seriously, watch a couple of "top-tier" matches. Play against some people in tournaments. Nobody touches the special moves. Nobody plays as anything other than Fox, Falco, Cpt. Falcon, Marth or Shiek. All they do is wavedash around and hit each other with aerial attacks. It's not awesome. It's boring. Not only that, it's against the spirit of everything I believe Smash Bros. to be - accessible, good, clean, Nintendo-loving fun. Not a hardcore "look-at-me-I-can-exploit-glitches-better-than-you" contest.
Toups is right, it does kill the accessibility of the game. Just because someone hasn't heard of it isn't the point. The point is if you don't do it, and you sit down to fight against someone who picks a lightning-fast character and DOES do it, you will, as you say, have your ass handed to you. Mastering this gameplay glitch gives you a huuuuuge advantage over someone who hasn't and that sort of thing kills the pick-up-and-play approach that Smash Bros. is all about.
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
player 2
.
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 585
Location: Madison, WI USA
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mister Toups wrote: | | Lockeownzj00 wrote: | | Quote: |
This won't be too bad as long as they don't base the game around bullshit like dash cancelling. |
Bullshit? I donno. I was never that pro but I got pretty darn close. It sounds like you're calling it bullshit because you can't counter it. Yes, it is an unintentional 'feature' of the game. But the amazing part is that it's still consistent and leads to awesome matches and is hardly unfair if both players know how to do it. |
The problem is it kills the accessibility of the game, which is what I find so appealing about it to began with.
And no I've never learned to do it though I'm sure I could. |
Wave dashing is really intimidating, but it really doesn't do anything that special. I actually think it helps the game a lot because it acts just like that - it helps your game, it's recognizable, but it doesn't break the system. If you suck you suck, even if you can wave dash.
And that's ultimately what fighting games need. Depth that doesn't separate your audience. It's an incremental leap that, given a little effort, everyone can make.
_________________
Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mister Toups
Hates your favorite videogame
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 1693
Location: Lafayette, LA
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It doesn't break the game, it just mars its elegance. And the game is plenty deep without it.
I mean I don't have a problem with it being an accidental part of Melee. I just hope they don't decide to "retcon" it into the series' gameplay.
_________________
where were you when nana komatsu got a wii? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Great Unwashed
.
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 359
Location: Perth, Western Australia
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| player 2 wrote: | Wave dashing is really intimidating, but it really doesn't do anything that special. I actually think it helps the game a lot because it acts just like that - it helps your game, it's recognizable, but it doesn't break the system. If you suck you suck, even if you can wave dash.
And that's ultimately what fighting games need. Depth that doesn't separate your audience. It's an incremental leap that, given a little effort, everyone can make. |
This is true. I've played against a lot of people who wavedash - it really adds nothing to their game. It's described on all the hardcore pro-gaming SSBM forums that I need to grit my teeth to read as "a psychological weapon" to "psych out your opponent". Despite the fact that on these forums, everybody wavedashes, thus rendering its real value useless. Things like L-cancelling and shffling still have a lot of value however as these expose glitches in the game mechanics to allow you to recover faster, and a subconscious bias on the part of the programmers to make all arial attacks have a ludicrously high Priority.
Wavedashing doesn't seperate an audience, but things like L-cancelling, shffling and such do.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kirkjerk
.
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1227
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| The Great Unwashed wrote: | | kirkjerk wrote: | | I still don't see why stock should always have to be last one standing. |
Technically it is possible, though nobody I know uses it, to set a time limit for stock battles. It's under the advanced options when setting up a custom game. |
nonono, that's just "if everyone just sits around and does nothing, eventually the timer kicks in"
I don't want a timer, I want victory measured the same way as in timed modes, by adding up kills and subtracting deaths, not just by subtracting deaths (which is, then, roughly what "last one standing" is)
Re: the other conversation, there's an old fashioned concept called "Well, is it sporting?" This a nicely humble, kind of English concept, that recognizes A. games are there for fun and B. Don't get too in love with your MAD SKILLZ, it's unlikely that you're in contention for Champion of the World even if you are able to consistently lay a smack down on your gaming peers. This is as opposed to a more American "Win at any price" vibe, which says that if we start pulling our punches, the outcome isn't quite fair, and players owe it to each other and to The Game to dig up the toughest strategy they possibly can, even if it violates how the game seems to be "meant" to be played.
The latter attitude then leads to people who cheat on online games, and their arguments ("well, everyone would do it if they could!") are very similar. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
player 2
.
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 585
Location: Madison, WI USA
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mister Toups wrote: | It doesn't break the game, it just mars its elegance. And the game is plenty deep without it.
I mean I don't have a problem with it being an accidental part of Melee. I just hope they don't decide to "retcon" it into the series' gameplay. |
Why don't you think it fits the series?
I kinda like the idea of showboating in videogames. I really like the idea of showboating in Smash Brothers. Before I found out who Master Hand was (he's a Kirby character, right?) I thought SSB was a puppet show. It's kind of like "who's the most baddest cute videogame character ever!" crossed with... puppets on strings. And if I'm going to prove to anyone who's the most baddest puppet ever, well, I'm going to expect over the top cockiness.
Taunts aren't fun for me because they're so predetermined. Wave dashing is another thing, though. After I toss someone off, I just like to wave dash around the ground to show off. I do it a lot when I'm baiting someone, too. It's kinda psychological (see the post right below yours), but it's kinda worthless. Mostly it's fun.
What I'd actually like to see is wave dashing "retcon"-ed into the series and add more flashyness. I'd kinda like to see my character pull out a flag samurai style and have it trail him as he wave dashes. Or a ribbon. Or some bells that jingle as wavedash up to you. Or a trumpet to announce my kicking of your ass.
_________________
Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kirkjerk
.
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1227
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| player 2 wrote: | | Mister Toups wrote: | It doesn't break the game, it just mars its elegance. And the game is plenty deep without it.
I mean I don't have a problem with it being an accidental part of Melee. I just hope they don't decide to "retcon" it into the series' gameplay. |
Why don't you think it fits the series? |
I'd say because it doesn't look like a "natural" thing for the character to be doing, back in their native game. Now there's a lot to Smsh Bros that's new for Smash Bros, despite the rich backstories, but still.
| Quote: | | I kinda like the idea of showboating in videogames. I really like the idea of showboating in Smash Brothers. Before I found out who Master Hand was (he's a Kirby character, right?) I thought SSB was a puppet show. It's kind of like "who's the most baddest cute videogame character ever!" crossed with... puppets on strings. And if I'm going to prove to anyone who's the most baddest puppet ever, well, I'm going to expect over the top cockiness. |
Hmm, looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_Smash_Bros._series_NPCs , Master Hand shows up in Kirby and the Amazing Mirror, but that came out years after both Smash Bros.
I think you had the right idea, though, especially in the first game the idea seemed to be you were playing with toys and imagination... which makes sense, you'd have to do a Metric Buttload of insanely idiotic story rewriting to fit Smash Bros in the "real universes" of the various characters. Just the way you can have, say, 4 Samus Arans...
"Over the top cockiness" is in the eye of the beholder. The other way of putting that is "using any weasle-y strategy I can find"... the fact that it takes some skill to pull off is almost coincidental. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
helicopterp
.
Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 1435
Location: Philadelphia
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kirkjerk wrote: | Re: the other conversation, there's an old fashioned concept called "Well, is it sporting?" This a nicely humble, kind of English concept, that recognizes A. games are there for fun and B. Don't get too in love with your MAD SKILLZ, it's unlikely that you're in contention for Champion of the World even if you are able to consistently lay a smack down on your gaming peers. This is as opposed to a more American "Win at any price" vibe, which says that if we start pulling our punches, the outcome isn't quite fair, and players owe it to each other and to The Game to dig up the toughest strategy they possibly can, even if it violates how the game seems to be "meant" to be played.
The latter attitude then leads to people who cheat on online games, and their arguments ("well, everyone would do it if they could!") are very similar. |
Am I the only one put off by the cultural generalizations here?
I mean, I'm with you on the whole "Well, is it sporting?" attitude, but were you being serious with the notion of it being much more English than American?
| player 2 wrote: | | I thought SSB was a puppet show. |
Me too. I think the toy chest intro had a lot to do with that.
| player 2 wrote: | | Taunts aren't fun for me because they're so predetermined. |
You just don't toss enough pills from out of your labcoat.
_________________
Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kirkjerk
.
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1227
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| helicopterp wrote: | Am I the only one put off by the cultural generalizations here?
I mean, I'm with you on the whole "Well, is it sporting?" attitude, but were you being serious with the notion of it being much more English than American? |
Admittedly I am thinking in terms of cultural archetypes/stereotypes here.
I might've been a bit influenced by just reading "League of Extraordinary Gentleman" where what's her name complains about Captain Nemo's machine gun with a claim that it's not sporting, and that fit an English stereotype I had seen before. I'm pretty sure there are some other quotes to that effect.
As for "win at any cost" being a bit more of an American point of view... well, YMMV. If you think it's an unfair association, my apologies, but there is again a stereotype of the cutthroat businessman or sportsfigure.
The cultural associations might've been a bit gratuitous, but I thought they were useful reference points. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pijaibros
.
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 342
Location: Mistake by the Lake
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
The accessability is the only reason I even give the game so much of my time.
It's the only game that new people and non-fighting engine people can develop and understand without getting into the crazy stuff like the wavedashing and other terms that are part of the game. Since they play, I play, basically.
You ever try teaching someone King of Fighters or Street Fighter? It's a damn celebration if you can get them to fireball properly or combo into super. The more "hardcore" fighting games have such an intimidating learning curve to those who aren't willing to devote their all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kirkjerk
.
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1227
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Pijaibros wrote: | | You ever try teaching someone King of Fighters or Street Fighter? It's a damn celebration if you can get them to fireball properly or combo into super. The more "hardcore" fighting games have such an intimidating learning curve to those who aren't willing to devote their all. |
I've read about that as a general problem with the industry...as game makers cater more and more to people who have been playing games for a decade or more, they make more assumptions about "what you know". (Countering that, young kids tend to pick up things more easily as well). This is more blatant in fighting games and some RPGs, but even the design of controllers through the years...
I like how you can use the C-stick for the power moves in Smash Bros, if you don't feel like getting the "tap" right... I try to use the tap more, but when I'm playing against less experienced folks, it's one of the things I'm sure to explain to them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Harveyjames
the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 3636
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
You know, I'm not sure Smash Bros. is immediately accessable. The whole concept of damage percentages and being scored on the number of smashes is pretty abstract next to games where you just hit your opponent until you knock them out. With Street Fighter, anyone can pick up what's going on in seconds, but with Smash Bros. it takes a while and even then it's not clear why you'd want to play it over a game where you win by knockout.
This is just me speaking as a casual fighting games fan who measures every fighting game he plays against Street Fighter III 3rd Strike. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
zebadayus
.
Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 48
Location: Kentucky
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
hm
Last edited by zebadayus on Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Harveyjames
the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 3636
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Yeah that's true, I remember getting Smash Bros out at a party and aweing people with the smorgasbord of pop culture references (like how you can shoot people with a nintendo super-scope and play as pikachu). Everyone who plays it casually has fun but no-one really has a clue what's going on, how they knocked that person out, why they got knocked out when they did, etc. It's fun like Hungry Hungry Hippos is fun, you press a button and it makes a noise and something happens and at the end you find out who's the winner. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kirkjerk
.
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1227
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| zebadayus wrote: | Seeing a drunk guy get freaked out by the 2D Mr. Game & Watch fighting in a 3D world next to 3D characters is pretty entertaining. Also anyone will try to get in on it, whether they're skilled at it or not. People also like to watch.
I think Smash Bros. is very accessible. Probably the most difficult mechanic for anybody is timing the smash attacks right to perform them, but even that isn't horribly difficult. That, and recovering from being knocked off can take some work to be done well. |
mentionng the C-stick helps for that... the other bit of important non-intuitiveness is the double jump...
But conceptually, "hit others off the screen, don't get knocked off yourself, the higher the # there the more you're damaged and lkely to be knocked off" isn't too much worse than "hit your opponent, avoid being hit yourself, that bar is your health, when its done so are you"
| Quote: | | The gang and I most enjoy turning damage % up to 200, turning off all items except for Bob-ombs, and turning the item rate on very high. Also, doing this except with pokeballs is pretty fun as well (at Pokemon Stadium of course). |
heheh, I remember when I was trying to get more games played to unlock something in that game, I "invented" "Monkeys with Hammers and Bombs".... I dialed in 4 computer players, all DK, all hammers and bombs set to appear frequenly, massive damage. That was a fun spectator sport. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
player 2
.
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 585
Location: Madison, WI USA
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Harveyjames wrote: | | This is just me speaking as a casual fighting games fan who measures every fighting game he plays against Street Fighter III 3rd Strike. |
That's kinda odd.
Anyways, the thing about wave dashing is that it isn't really that useful. It isn't. It's just cockiness. There's a certain amount of skill involved, so the effort to effect ratio is pretty high. Sure, maybe it looks awkward, but I think that can be resolved while the action itself can still be kept.
Also, it's totally different than the projectile spam annoying thing.
_________________
Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Harveyjames
the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 3636
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| SFIII:3 is great. Every time I play a fighting game, at the back of my mind I'm wishing I was playing SFIII:3 instead. But I'm not very good at it and haven't put the time in to master it. It's not that odd, I don't think. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
player 2
.
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 585
Location: Madison, WI USA
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Harveyjames wrote: | | SFIII:3 is great. Every time I play a fighting game, at the back of my mind I'm wishing I was playing SFIII:3 instead. But I'm not very good at it and haven't put the time in to master it. It's not that odd, I don't think. |
comparing ssb to sf3 is like comparing weezer to wagner. i mean, you can do it. but why?
_________________
Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
helicopterp
.
Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 1435
Location: Philadelphia
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Because Rivers is a nazi at heart?
_________________
Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JasonMoses
.
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 407
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kirkjerk wrote: |
The latter attitude then leads to people who cheat on online games, and their arguments ("well, everyone would do it if they could!") are very similar. |
You've gotta be fucking kidding me. Playing to win and cheating are completely different - the prior results in players digging deep into the game rules and often subverting them through slowly developed unique play that often appears to be "against the spirit of the game" to people who aren't interested in winning. Which is fine! I've never played smash competitively but I know people that do and they take it very seriously. Who am I to say that their game is "less sporting" than mine?
The latter (cheating) is just going around the rules using tools that alter the game itself, and is obviously completely different since it's cheating. I'm a little unsure as to whether your argument is serious. It just seems like such a ridiculous comparison. I know people that cheat at games and their mindset is completely different from people who play games competitively. They don't give a fuck about improving their game, they're just interested in getting a laugh out of breaking the rules. And since everyone else is actively trying to squelch their ability to cheat in the vast majority of games, it's usually impossible to even continue playing that way in the first place. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
Hot Sake!
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 6279
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JasonMoses wrote: | | kirkjerk wrote: |
The latter attitude then leads to people who cheat on online games, and their arguments ("well, everyone would do it if they could!") are very similar. |
You've gotta be fucking kidding me. Playing to win and cheating are completely different - the prior results in players digging deep into the game rules and often subverting them through slowly developed unique play that often appears to be "against the spirit of the game" to people who aren't interested in winning. Which is fine! I've never played smash competitively but I know people that do and they take it very seriously. Who am I to say that their game is "less sporting" than mine? . |
So, when do we link to Sirlin?
_________________
“The average man has a secret desire to be a swaggering, drunken, fighting, raping swashbuckler.”
-Robert E. Howard in a letter to a friend circa Decmber 1932
"There is no place in this enterprise for a rogue physicist!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JasonMoses
.
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 407
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Seems like a cop-out. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kirkjerk
.
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1227
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JasonMoses wrote: | | kirkjerk wrote: |
The latter attitude then leads to people who cheat on online games, and their arguments ("well, everyone would do it if they could!") are very similar. |
You've gotta be fucking kidding me. Playing to win and cheating are completely different - the prior results in players digging deep into the game rules and often subverting them through slowly developed unique play that often appears to be "against the spirit of the game" to people who aren't interested in winning. Which is fine! I've never played smash competitively but I know people that do and they take it very seriously. Who am I to say that their game is "less sporting" than mine? |
I'm totally serious.
Sure, there's a *definite* difference between digging up obscure, ugly-ass strategies and outright cheating, but ones just further down a continuum. And both have a similar attitude: "damn, the fun, I want to win, and will use every available means to do so". And both can ruin games; some oversite by the programmer that lead to a single, boring, optimal strategy.
I mean, is use of a autofire button cheating? Is secretly entering a code that gives you enormous power cheating? How much of a difference is it if your opponent "knows" about it?
And I guess I'm talking more about "real world" settings rather than whatever competitive play has become. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
player 2
.
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 585
Location: Madison, WI USA
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kirk, have you ever played w/ someone who, upon wave dashing, a) dominated you or b) didn't have fun?
In fact, have you ever seen a SSBM player who stopped using wave dashing at the cost of hurting his game?
_________________
Wii #: 8749 9109 9732 3653
"It is a peaceful way of understanding life, to play"
_Marcel Duchamp |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nana Komatsu
weak sauce
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 1293
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| zebadayus wrote: | | Seeing a drunk guy get freaked out by the 2D Mr. Game & Watch fighting in a 3D world next to 3D characters is pretty entertaining. Also anyone will try to get in on it, whether they're skilled at it or not. People also like to watch. |
One of the things someone I knew in college liked to do was play Mr. Game and Watch and continually do his hammer move where he holds up the numbered sign. If he ever connected with it and got a 9 he would scream out "THE LAW", but until then he'd spend the rest of the match trying to do this over and over again.
Sometimes we did Final Destination, giant melee with only the mushrooms turned on and all played Game and Watch at once. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kirkjerk
.
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1227
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| player 2 wrote: | Kirk, have you ever played w/ someone who, upon wave dashing, a) dominated you or b) didn't have fun?
In fact, have you ever seen a SSBM player who stopped using wave dashing at the cost of hurting his game? |
Honestly I'm not sure if I've seen much wave dashing, so like I said,
"And I guess I'm talking more about 'real world' settings rather than whatever competitive play has become."
So maybe it's not relevant, except for people who are looking to take the whole thing pretty seriously. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pijaibros
.
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 342
Location: Mistake by the Lake
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kirkjerk wrote: | I'm totally serious.
Sure, there's a *definite* difference between digging up obscure, ugly-ass strategies and outright cheating, but ones just further down a continuum. And both have a similar attitude: "damn, the fun, I want to win, and will use every available means to do so". And both can ruin games; some oversite by the programmer that lead to a single, boring, optimal strategy. |
You've just summarized all of professional sports.
| kirkjerk wrote: |
I mean, is use of a autofire button cheating? Is secretly entering a code that gives you enormous power cheating? How much of a difference is it if your opponent "knows" about it?
And I guess I'm talking more about "real world" settings rather than whatever competitive play has become. |
The thing is that unlike those tools, digging up an old strategy can be replicated and absorbed into your own style of play through careful watching and some practice.
If you have a good community of aficionados around you, their game will improve and your experience will also elevate. Example...in my small circle of smash friends nobody used Peach. I ran them over with Peach, now a couple have taken to choosing Peach and it's now like fighting a mirror. They've taken mental notes of all the situations and moves that I've used and integrated into their game. This just means I have to kick my own ass.
I switch characters and have to formulate new plans and thus elevate my game. Looking for the mistakes and capitalizing. They then adapt and I have to adjust. It's pretty great.
Now, I don't know about you, but I get the biggest enjoyment out of games when I dive deep into the engine and find how it works. I do this with all games, but I'm an old relic of the past ya see. I like my shooters, fighters, run n guns, old platformers. These games for the past 2 decades have groomed me into having to want to learn their systems in order to advance myself. If not, then gameover. There is great satisfaction in having to work to beat the game.
Yeah you don't finish these games, you beat them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kirkjerk
.
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1227
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Pijaibros wrote: | | kirkjerk wrote: | I'm totally serious.
Sure, there's a *definite* difference between digging up obscure, ugly-ass strategies and outright cheating, but ones just further down a continuum. And both have a similar attitude: "damn, the fun, I want to win, and will use every available means to do so". And both can ruin games; some oversite by the programmer that lead to a single, boring, optimal strategy. |
You've just summarized all of professional sports.
|
True, which are distinct from casual gaming.
And rife with cheaters.
| Quote: | | kirkjerk wrote: |
And I guess I'm talking more about "real world" settings rather than whatever competitive play has become. |
The thing is that unlike those tools, digging up an old strategy can be replicated and absorbed into your own style of play through careful watching and some practice.
If you have a good community of aficionados around you, their game will improve and your experience will also elevate. Example...in my small circle of smash friends nobody used Peach. I ran them over with Peach, now a couple have taken to choosing Peach and it's now like fighting a mirror. They've taken mental notes of all the situations and moves that I've used and integrated into their game. This just means I have to kick my own ass.
I switch characters and have to formulate new plans and thus elevate my game. Looking for the mistakes and capitalizing. They then adapt and I have to adjust. It's pretty great.
|
[/quote]
You make a good case but there's still the problem of people of varying levels trying to play each other. Games like Smash Bros can compensate for that w/ handicaps, but I think something advanced like Wave-Dashing wouldn't belong in that scenario. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kirkjerk
.
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1227
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Shapermc wrote: | | So, when do we link to Sirlin? |
Wow, it's weird. I feel that in many ways I'm kind of a veteran of the web, having been using it for 12 years, and posting to online gaming forums even longer, and aware of most of the memes and all that, but there's still stuff I'm just finding out about, like fourchan (is that the one of the main sources of all those forum-able JPGs like "I have no idea what you said, so here's a picture of a bunny with a pancake on its head"?) 'til the IC issues, and now Sirlin, which is the level of thought about gaming I find most fascinating: higher level, but with plenty of real world examples.
Heh, though I saw that Slipper Slope / Perpetual Comeback thing recently... not sure if on that site or somewhere else... I posted somewhere about Tetris Attack on it.
Man, I have a total goldfish memory. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lockeownzj00
.
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 214
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
There's no way to 'counter' dash cancelling. You can't stop a player doing it, much like any of these so-called "advanced techniques", or if you will, glitches, that people go on about, along with terms like "wavedashing", "top tier", "fair", "nair", "dair" and "pillaring". |
You can't "counter" shields either, unless you count beating the crap out of the person shielding until they break (which rarely happens because theyve changed stances by then) 'countering.' It's the same thing.
| Quote: | | Mastering this gameplay glitch gives you a huuuuuge advantage over someone who hasn't and that sort of thing kills the pick-up-and-play approach that Smash Bros. is all about. |
So, being familiar with the moves of a character that your opponent isn't, and conceivably anything else that makes you a better player because youre more in tune to the game is unfair? This isn't "hit pixel 1,387 and it gives you +100 health," it's a mid-battle move as valid as any other.
I like the accessibility of Smash Brothers too. But you guys said it yourself: this doesn't harm that accessibility in any way. Are players forced to wave dash? Is it even a major component in the game for most players? Do most players even know about it? It's not threatening this precious accessibility at all, and it's exactly what I love about Smash Brothers--there are several 'layers' to the game, each one more fascinating than the next, each one with surprisingly even more depth than one thought capable in a game with such a simple concept (and layout).
| Quote: | | Despite the fact that on these forums, everybody wavedashes, thus rendering its real value useless. |
Wouldn't that be like saying (and I'm pretty sure this isn't true...hypothetical) "anyone who's serious about x fighting game who plays on Xbox Live uses an arcade stick. In pro communities, everyone uses an arcade stick. The advantage of having an arcade stick over players using the controller is lost. Therefore, there is no point in using the arcade stick." The wave dash in these communities is the baseline. It's hardly useless. You need to use that before you move on to other things.
On Fox and his ilk: In a sense, I agree. Those are pretty crazy boring matches sometimes. But then, that's not the whole game. I respect hex war games even though they bore me to tears, because I know to some people it's riveting. The breakneck speed and precision of these pro matches is a little beyond me, but I can certainly see why it might be interesting. Besides, I've found more often than not that pro players are more willing to play as allegedly "bad" characters and show that they can kick some serious ass (from ice climbers to pichu). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kirkjerk
.
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1227
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Lockeownzj00 wrote: | | So, being familiar with the moves of a character that your opponent isn't, and conceivably anything else that makes you a better player because youre more in tune to the game is unfair? This isn't "hit pixel 1,387 and it gives you +100 health," it's a mid-battle move as valid as any other. |
For casual players, I'd say there could be a reasonable cutoff of "moves I would encounter on my own without having to find it online"
| Quote: | | I like the accessibility of Smash Brothers too. But you guys said it yourself: this doesn't harm that accessibility in any way. Are players forced to wave dash? Is it even a major component in the game for most players? Do most players even know about it? It's not threatening this precious accessibility at all, and it's exactly what I love about Smash Brothers--there are several 'layers' to the game, each one more fascinating than the next, each one with surprisingly even more depth than one thought capable in a game with such a simple concept (and layout). |
No, it's not as big a deal as it has sounded in this discussion.
Thinking of "simple concept (and layout)" -- I love how the geography of the board can be so much more important than in 95% of regular fighting games.
| Quote: | | it might be interesting. Besides, I've found more often than not that pro players are more willing to play as allegedly "bad" characters and show that they can kick some serious ass (from ice climbers to pichu). |
That's also an idea intermediate players will take to try to level things off w/ newbies. I do random select on Smash Bros and take big fat cars I don't like as much for Double Dash... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dessgeega
loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 6563
Location: bohan
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
playing peach is pretty great. i choose her pretty often.
anyway, the proper comparison for smash bros. is outfoxies.
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Great Unwashed
.
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 359
Location: Perth, Western Australia
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Lockeownzj00 wrote: | | You can't "counter" shields either, unless you count beating the crap out of the person shielding until they break (which rarely happens because theyve changed stances by then) 'countering.' It's the same thing. |
Uh, you can counter shields. Much in the same way you counter somebody who's playing Marth and is spamming the Down+B counter move. You grab them and throw them...
| Lockeownzj00 wrote: | So, being familiar with the moves of a character that your opponent isn't, and conceivably anything else that makes you a better player because youre more in tune to the game is unfair? This isn't "hit pixel 1,387 and it gives you +100 health," it's a mid-battle move as valid as any other.
I like the accessibility of Smash Brothers too. But you guys said it yourself: this doesn't harm that accessibility in any way. Are players forced to wave dash? Is it even a major component in the game for most players? Do most players even know about it? It's not threatening this precious accessibility at all, and it's exactly what I love about Smash Brothers--there are several 'layers' to the game, each one more fascinating than the next, each one with surprisingly even more depth than one thought capable in a game with such a simple concept (and layout). |
I understand where you're coming from, but to call these game glitches such as wavedashing and l-cancelling "depth" is, I believe, quite wrong. Watching these "pro" games shows an incredible lack of depth. They've taken the beautiful, fan-loving nature of SSBM, filled with characters from everyone's favourite games, and pared it down to a pick-a-fast-character-and-wavedash-till-you-can-hit-me-with-an-arial-attack festival. There's no depth there at all. I understand when you say that game itself has depth and yes it does, I agree - there are definitely casual gamer and competitive player levels - but when you go beyond that to this "pro gamer" and "top tier" shit is when it loses all depth.
To answer your question, no, players won't be forced to wavedash, because wavedashing is a mostly aesthetic and psychological technique. However if players come up against a player who is spamming shffls and fairs, l-cancelling like a bandit and dash-grabbing their balls off, then yes, they WILL be forced to up themselves to that level because they will get beaten.
| Lockeownzj00 wrote: | | Wouldn't that be like saying (and I'm pretty sure this isn't true...hypothetical) "anyone who's serious about x fighting game who plays on Xbox Live uses an arcade stick. In pro communities, everyone uses an arcade stick. The advantage of having an arcade stick over players using the controller is lost. Therefore, there is no point in using the arcade stick." The wave dash in these communities is the baseline. It's hardly useless. You need to use that before you move on to other things. |
Not exactly true, as you say. The main advantage of wavedashing is the psychological advantage it gives you over an opponent who is never sure if they're going to be attacked by this maniacally fast moving character or are just being drawn out, etc. So what I'm saying is that if everybody's trying to out-psych each other, it's not like they won't recognise their own tricks - thus somewhat negating its effectiveness as a psychological weapon.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
helicopterp
.
Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 1435
Location: Philadelphia
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I hate this discussion. Can we talk about the music again?
_________________
Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Great Unwashed
.
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 359
Location: Perth, Western Australia
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
I recorded SSBM music onto a cassette tape and listened to it in my car.
Hardest
Of
Core
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Harveyjames
the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 3636
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Nintendo Official Magazine gave away a CD of the Smash Bros. soundtrack performed live by the Tokyo Philharmonic orchestra. The Doctor Mario and Balloon fight themes are on there too. It's pretty swell. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Great Unwashed
.
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 359
Location: Perth, Western Australia
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
Sadly we here in Australia received not that magazine. I was forced to download this album of which you speak! It's quite excellent. I have both the orchestral versions and actual music ripped from game. Delicious.
Fire Emblem, DK Jungle, Poke Floats and Big Blue are my favourites.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pijaibros
.
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 342
Location: Mistake by the Lake
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
For a second when you mentioned DK Jungle, I thought you were talking about that stage with the DK Rap. I love the stage, but I choose to omit it from my selections because of that grating tune.
Though one stage that I hate, but has great music is that one Yoshi stage with the 2 slopes on the sides and the low ceilings. It has a remix of the tune from world 1-2 in Mario 3. I never did figure out how to get it to just load the alternate tracks outside of random chance.
Last edited by Pijaibros on Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OtakupunkX
.
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 730
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| It's not even the real DK Rap even, but a really muzaky version. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pijaibros
.
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 342
Location: Mistake by the Lake
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
The real one is worse?
I never owned an N64. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kirkjerk
.
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1227
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
I don't mind it so much.
I kind of like any song that can get away with stuff like
"His Coconut Gun, Fires in Spurts..." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Great Unwashed
.
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 359
Location: Perth, Western Australia
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Pijaibros wrote: | | I never did figure out how to get it to just load the alternate tracks outside of random chance. |
All players need to hold down L+R when the stage is picked. This will make the game play the alternate track for each level.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Harveyjames
the meteor kid
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 3636
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Pijaibros wrote: | | The real one is worse? |
The real one is worse.
The SSB version has what sounds like different rappers introducing all the different kongs, which I thought was neat. Shame the lyrics all refer to DK64 which is a big bag of hell. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kirkjerk
.
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1227
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Harveyjames wrote: | | Shame the lyrics all refer to DK64 which is a big bag of hell. |
DK64 has way too much collecting and arbitary restrictions but is otherwise a good game with great boss fights, some neat minilevels (like the sliding race in the desert section) and was one of the first home emulations of arcade Donkey Kong. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pijaibros
.
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 342
Location: Mistake by the Lake
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
All players holding buttons? That requires coordination...ah well.
Getting 4 drunk men to do anything in sync is asking for trouble. I think the alternate tracks strike a chord with me because it's always a nice surprise when it happens. We're jamming along when all of a sudden someone just mentions the music and all chaos stops for just a second...Whoa!
Icicle Mountain with the Balloon Trip is some great music, too bad the stage is lousy for actual fighting. Orchestrated soundtrack, you say? I might have to go find that for my listening pleasure. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
helicopterp
.
Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 1435
Location: Philadelphia
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kirkjerk wrote: | | "His Coconut Gun, can Fire in Spurts..." |
If he shoots ya, it's gonna hurt!
HarveyJames: How can I get this cd from you or from somewhere else?
_________________
Like you thought you'd seen copter perverts before. They were nothing compared to this one. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dessgeega
loves your favorite videogame
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 6563
Location: bohan
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
i can't believe people refuse to play the river stage because of the dk rap. it suits the tone of the game so well!
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TOLLMASTER
nippon ichi PR man
Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 187
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I remember an N64 AOL fansite I used to visit, where the DK Rap was professed to be the greatest thing ever for months. Well, that and the ROM Expansion Pak, which didn't go far to make DK64 a great (or even very good) game. Though the last boss fight was absolute genius. (Rare's last hurrah was easily Jet Force Gemini, the first and only game that I ever thought of returning because it sucked so much, and the game that made me believe in video games again.)
The DK Rap does kind of grow on you over a while, though. In fact, it's not exaggeration that I think most Nintendo games would be improved by having a hokey rap inserted into the intro. Super Mario Sunshine is the prime offender, I think, but you can also understand why the classic Zelda commercial rap should be put into Twilight Princess. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kirkjerk
.
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1227
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TOLLMASTER wrote: | | I remember an N64 AOL fansite I used to visit, where the DK Rap was professed to be the greatest thing ever for months. Well, that and the ROM Expansion Pak, which didn't go far to make DK64 a great (or even very good) game. Though the last boss fight was absolute genius. (Rare's last hurrah was easily Jet Force Gemini, the first and only game that I ever thought of returning because it sucked so much, and the game that made me believe in video games again.) |
I greatly appreciated that Rare had a "bossfight selection" screen. I think most Nintendo games (well, Zelda and Metroid) would benefit from this
The last boss was great. but I was most smitten with the one w/ "King Kut-Out" or whatever it was, with the minions holding up giant cardboard signs of their beloved leader. Straight outta the muppets!
| Quote: | | The DK Rap does kind of grow on you over a while, though. In fact, it's not exaggeration that I think most Nintendo games would be improved by having a hokey rap inserted into the intro. Super Mario Sunshine is the prime offender, I think, but you can also understand why the classic Zelda commercial rap should be put into Twilight Princess. |
My GF's little brother is really into this one version of Legend of Zelda w/ lyrics. I guess it might be the "System of a Down" version. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
