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Someone Talk about Final Fantasy XII
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SuperWes
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lockeownzj00 wrote:
Basically, the gambit for criticising Square/Final Fantasy is so predictable now that I can only conclude that it is elitist bullshit.


Mother fucking bingo!

-Wes
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lockeownzj00 wrote:
Quote:

I at least appreciate it more than something like Final Fantasy, which *only recently started taking itself entirely seriously while plumbing the lowest depths of jEmo.


I corrected your sentence, there were some grammatical errors.

While some tirelessly argue that 7 was similar, if you actually, you know, played FF7, you would find little "emo--" mostly just a trite little romp of a story. 8, perhaps I agree. 9, you're completely wrong. 10, I can see the argument, but it's still really weak. Only post-X/VII-revival FF is what you're talking about. All of these games (9 especially) do their part to be light-hearted, as well.

This is just providing me more and more reasons to write a treatise on why Final Fantasy is a misunderstood franchise. If Final Fantasy is a level quest, then what is Dragon Warrior?

Also, I don't understand how any of these allegations apply to pre-playstation FF.

Basically, the gambit for criticising Square/Final Fantasy is so predictable now that I can only conclude that it is elitist bullshit.


FFVII introduced us to a sulky, brooding young adult tortured by the injustices of his personal situation, as inflicted upon him by the entire world. I never played IX so I'm not sure about that one, but the paradigm seems to be upheld by the rest of the entire last decade of Final Fantasy. That's where all the allegations come from.

Admittedly, pre-FFVII the emo thing hadn't fully emerged yet (though I'd say multiple sections of 4-6 came close, to be saved only by the angst being of a slightly more mythical than post-adolescent nature). Instead the series had head villains like "X-deth," all while still taking itself entirely seriously. It wasn't quite in touch with the limitations of its own forms of storytelling and play.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
For RPGs to improve, they need to be consistent. I don't want to be jarred from my badass CG cutscenes, androgynous cut-outs or not, with off-scale map screens, equally off-scale combat screens, mini-games and then conversations which have no real effect, let alone provide insight, on the plot.


dracko, have you played breath of fire: dragon quarter?

because if not, you really should.

really.
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Ketch
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why don't we all make our own RPGs then?
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Six
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's what chatrooms are for
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sharc wrote:
Dracko wrote:
For RPGs to improve, they need to be consistent. I don't want to be jarred from my badass CG cutscenes, androgynous cut-outs or not, with off-scale map screens, equally off-scale combat screens, mini-games and then conversations which have no real effect, let alone provide insight, on the plot.


dracko, have you played breath of fire: dragon quarter?

because if not, you really should.

really.

I looked into it. Sounds interesting and the plot seems more compelling than most. I'll see if I can find it around.
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Nana Komatsu
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ketch wrote:
Why don't we all make our own RPGs then?


At Otakon I was playing GGXX#Slash and talking to this girl. Then she asked me "Do you roleplay?" and I immediately wanted to never play Guilty Gear again.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, even the good pen-and-paper RPGs are the ones with the least dice-rolling and stat-tracking.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nana, I thought that was the whole point of Guilty Gear. A bunch of festishly dressed people with a clunky combat system that needs to be mastered before it yields any sort of pleasure. I don't think you can casually player GGXX. It's not nice enough.
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Nana Komatsu
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play it casually! That doesn't mean I like to pretend I'm Bridget or A.B.A. online though.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Basically, the gambit for criticising Square/Final Fantasy is so predictable now that I can only conclude that it is elitist bullshit.


i'll cop to that, i guess.
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Lockeownzj00
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
FFVII introduced us to a sulky, brooding young adult tortured by the injustices of his personal situation, as inflicted upon him by the entire world.


So, there can be no internal frustration in the narrative? Are you going to tell me The Count of Monte Cristo is an emo book? I don't get the qualification for "emo." What would the story have been without it? Even more paper-thin. At least it added some kind of dimension. And hew as hardly "moping" the whole game. Or sulking. In fact, for most of the game, he's just a hard-headed young fighter. Only towards the end do you ever find out anything "different" about his past.

I mean, I can systematically go through each game and pretty much say that this jEmo crap isn't true. Even X was largely lighthearted, and mostly ruined by voiceacting, not the actual plot. I mean, at what point do you decide what is a good plot? Like I've said before, you're in a fantasy world with magic and monsters, and it's an adventure story.

And I'm all for making the story engrossing, but it's a goddamned adventure story. That means unrealistically taking on huge monsters by yourself], in grand scenes in grand fields using magic and summon powers and all that other jazz. It's already unrealistic! What more do you want from it? I'm not even arguing that you should 'let games have bad stories because they're meant to be light-hearted,' because I actually like the stories. Just take them for what they are. It's not fucking Proust. It's a hero-and-princess tale at its heart, and at leas Square tried to add some romantic elements to it. So, what's the emo part? His dad's a dick? Realising Yuna's gonna die? These just seem like logical plot points. What about Zelda? Oh, but with Zelda it's okay, I forgot. Square is apparently the "M$" of the videogaming world.

PS: Dragon Quarter is fuckin' brill. Imagine a polished console version of Fallout 2 (for the battle system), combined with the cruelty of ADnD, and a bunch of other shit. Plus cel-shaded. It's pretty sweet.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I mean, at what point do you decide what is a good plot?


Quote:
Like I've said before, you're in a fantasy world with magic and monsters, and it's an adventure story.


these things are not mutually exclusive.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
Lockeownzj00 wrote:
Basically, the gambit for criticising Square/Final Fantasy is so predictable now that I can only conclude that it is elitist bullshit.


Mother fucking bingo!


Count me in, too.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, DQ8 is the only DQ game I have enjoyed that has been released in the US. I enjoy a few FF games too, just not that much. Most of it has to do with how ... uninvolved you are with the game.
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Mr. Mechanical
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this thread still for talking about FFXII? Because I think I'm ready to talk about it now. I'm ready to talk about it because I've actually been playing it rather than letting it sit in the box on top of my old timey typewriter next to my computer desk.

This game is pretty good!

It still kind of annoys me that it took five and a half hours to go from being "alright" to "pretty good". Why couldn't they had made it "pretty good" to start with, instead of making me slog through it without a party for a couple hours, then give me a party but no gambits worth anything, then give me some gambits worth something and start throwing me into situations where I could appreciate the gambits, then start tossing some interesing story bits my way to keep me wanting to move forward, etc.? Oh well, moot point now that the game is finally starting to pick up and get good! SPOILERS follow...

I just finished the Barheim Passage, the part where you have to keep the mimics from sapping electricity and then eventually fight the giant mimic. It killed me the first time, so I went back through the entire area to see if the shop guy had any more magic to sell me but it turns out he didn't, so I went all the back. I double backed a couple times because I figured I needed to level up anyways. Well, before the second fight I bought quickenings for Vaan and Fran. When the fight started I opened up with Vaan's quickening, and chained it to Fran's for MASSIVE DAMAGE. The battle was over after that!

Now I'm taking a break while the party is chilling outside the exit to the passage in the Dalmascun desert, which is fucking HUGE by the way, and I'm thinking this is a pretty good game now that it's actually started. When I went into the passage my levels were around six to seven, and now that I'm out everyone is at thirteen. I like that! And there's a whole desert to explore before returning to Rabanastre! Whoo!

I also like how quickly the battles go by when you got gambits turned on for everyone. It's actually pretty fun to just watch my party tear through lesser enemies like they were nothing. Exploring an area and killing enemies, then finding a shop and selling off all the loot they dropped so you can buy spells and equipment is pretty neat too. The way it's done here gives the whole game a nice sense of meaty progression. Nothing drip-fed to you, but in large doses at intervals. For the first five hours of the game I was pretty sure that childhood was over and the dream had died, but now it's starting to turn around for me.

Final Fantasy XII
Pretty good once it gets started
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's another nice bump once you start acquiring spells that you want cast on your guys pretty much all the time, meaning that while you steer your party around, they're buffing each other as well as wiping through enemies and the satisfaction from seeing selected Gambits enable the group to off tough monsters is even greater than watching them puree the easier ones.

Recently I've come to appreciate the ease of running away as compared to other FFs. Previously, I almost never used the "Run Away" option because it was such a crapshoot and it would get tediously boring to fail and sit through another round of combat, especially if you failed multiple times in a row. Now, running away is pretty much automatic, so long as your party can survive the hits they'll take while you run to a safe area. As an example, I just got finished fighting one of the marks that has some pretty nasty strategies that change over time. Rather than die multiple times or spend 10 minutes trying to run away (which might not work against a boss-type monster), I could just run off, zone and modify my equipment and Gambits to something that might be more effective.

It also really helps when you just want to get through an area quickly.

And a lot of the criticism of FF/Square is eltist BS. So is most of the nerdc0re reaction to Madden/Halo/mainstream/Western gaming. That doesn't meant that there aren't legitimate criticisms of each though.
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Nana Komatsu
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the game was both too long and not long enough at the same time. The ending was good for where the story was at that point, I was not disappointed (and I've become extremely critical of game/movie/book endings of late for some reason).

The Gilgamesh fight was totally great.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There isn't an especially great way to deal with him the second time other than being able to dodge the status effects he can throw, is there?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being insanely high leveled would help, i guess.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blind, Silence, and Slow are the only reasons I can manage the MArk Hunts whenever I contract them.

I just keep spamming them until it either hits or says immune. Usually takes at most 3 tries for a spell to stick.

Also Bubble is the greatest status buff that's ever been introduced in an FF game. My levels have been hovering around the 40s, but have been slowly pushing towards 50 since so many of these hunts have popped up at once now. I've gone on so many hunts I forgot what the real point of my adventure was.
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Nana Komatsu
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dark steve wrote:
There isn't an especially great way to deal with him the second time other than being able to dodge the status effects he can throw, is there?


Ally: Any -> Esuna for all three party members helps a bit.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Mechanical wrote:
Now I'm taking a break while the party is chilling outside the exit to the passage in the Dalmascun desert, which is fucking HUGE by the way, and I'm thinking this is a pretty good game now that it's actually started. When I went into the passage my levels were around six to seven, and now that I'm out everyone is at thirteen. I like that! And there's a whole desert to explore before returning to Rabanastre! Whoo!


It's odd, but I never enjoyed exploring in a FF game before this. In older games, I might explore mostly out of obligation and to ensure that I didn't miss any treasure or anything. In this game, I want to see the environments. I just want to explore every nook & cranny and admire the way the environments connect to one-another. So far, my favorite location has been the huge Jagd sandsea to the west of Rabanastre towards the tomb. I had a very, very nice time wandering around there.

I'm at a point in the game where there aren't really any locations left to explore. There's just the story dungeon that connects off of already established places on the map. I still have a lot of going back to old places to do, though, for espers and marks. That can be refreshing, too.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been thinking about why XII bothers me. And what I think bothers me about it is that it feels very similar to VI, but it fucks up my favorite part about VI.

The thing that I really like about VI is that each location changes so much and you revisit them over and over. Eventually you feel like you know the world, and, well, FF is all about that to me. Narshe, for example, starts as a place you are attacking, then a place you must flee from, and then a place you must return to and defend. I returned twice more - because I missed the city and wondered what was going on. The first time was to find Mog. The second time was to see if the people were doing OK.

What really ruins it for me in XII never really compels me to return to a location to check out the people. Hell, I barely even talk to anyone the first time I come to a location let alone care to come back another time. Each place is just a place to stop by and then you move on. You hardly ever get to see a location from multiple angles except for, well, places to fight monsters. That's kind of cool, and in XII it's as cool as FF has ever been... but I'm still kind of sad that I don't care about Ivalice.

Anyone want to play through FFVI with me?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

player 2 wrote:
Hell, I barely even talk to anyone the first time I come to a location let alone care to come back another time.


That's a shame, because at every small increment along the storyline, about 80% of the npcs in the entire game say different things, and the writing is mostly pretty good, too.
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Nana Komatsu
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked how many of the NPCs had titles you could see while you ran by.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

internisus wrote:
player 2 wrote:
Hell, I barely even talk to anyone the first time I come to a location let alone care to come back another time.


That's a shame, because at every small increment along the storyline, about 80% of the npcs in the entire game say different things, and the writing is mostly pretty good, too.


I don't care. In fact, the game encourages me not to care. The rewards are all wrong. Everytime there is a big bad mosnter to hunt (outside of Espers) I have to go to a clan board and then the petitioner. That's about the same as discouraging me to talk to anyone else. Sure, you can talk about small examples that lead me to small little things that maybe matter in this or that case, but on the whole, I'm encouraged not to care.

Contrast this to VI where you're told of a "star shaped mountain range with an esper" or an "island to the northeast with a strange man". It's random townspeople that help you out in these circumstances. The quest to find Cyan is totally preceded by a love story between a sick soldier and his wife. Or what about the townsperson who says that if you wager something really good at the colliseum that a shadowy character comes out to battle. The list goes on and on... I miss it.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from. My thoughts are uncomposed on the matter, however. I'll come back later, perhaps.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To XII's credit, VI pretty much cheats by using the whole before and after world mechanic. To VI's credit it does it really, really well.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Btw, I really like XII for a lot of things. I even like it for things other than its gutsiness.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I still hate it for not telling me what items do before I buy them. Why isn't there an item guide on gamefaqs yet? What the hell?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

squidlarkin wrote:
And I still hate it for not telling me what items do before I buy them. Why isn't there an item guide on gamefaqs yet? What the hell?


What do you mean? I haven't had much of a problem so far, if an item makes the stat numbers go up for any of my party members I usually take that to mean it'll have a positive effect on them.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Mechanical wrote:
squidlarkin wrote:
And I still hate it for not telling me what items do before I buy them. Why isn't there an item guide on gamefaqs yet? What the hell?


What do you mean? I haven't had much of a problem so far, if an item makes the stat numbers go up for any of my party members I usually take that to mean it'll have a positive effect on them.


I think he means the Bazaar items. At least one of the FAQs lists all the Bazaar items and their titles so you know what you're buying.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i thought he meant bonuses other than defense on armor

which irritates me, too

"fitting room," anybody?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ethoscapade wrote:
"fitting room," anybody?


i'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that! They bothered to put optimize in, i'm not sure why they didn't go a step further.

when i'm in cerobi steppe i feel like i get this major final fantasy tactics vibe. the landscape and the music feels really close to that game.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, isn't that the point? at least with advance--that they both take place in Vana'Diel or whatever?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ivalice, ivalice...
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

now that ffxii is actually out, tactics advance feels like such a weird arbiter in all of this..

like... they were originally meant to be released not long (or at least not three years and change long) after one another, right? i wasn't crazy about tactics advance at the time, especially compared to fft, which remains maybe my favorite game ever. looking back, though, there's definitely a lot of similarity to ffxii at least in the way the story is told.

i do remember the general PR at the time of TA's release making a big deal about how enchanting the "world of ivalice" is. i'm about ready to concede that maybe i'd like it if i gave it another go... if only it weren't structured in such a way that "giving it another go" weren't a very discouraging concept.

everything about that game is cumulative. again, unlike fft.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lockeownzj00 wrote:
well, isn't that the point? at least with advance--that they both take place in Vana'Diel or whatever?


The ivalice in FFT had a much more darkages/european feel. FFTA and FFXII take more of their inspiration from mid-eastern culture, but cerobi steppe is the first place where the setting hits that old, original FFT feeling for me.

ethoscapade - incidentally I appreciate tactics advance much more now. i've even popped it back into my GBA and intend to finish the thing (i was fairly close to the end when playing it before). it's a pretty easy game but is still well-designed and enjoyable to play.
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