The Gamer's Quarter

Ryan - SuperWes' Bane · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:15 am Post subject: Final Fantasy Needs to die

Or basically, when does a franchise become too bloated and stagnant that it no longer is really worth making? I started thinking about this the other day. Do I REALLY want to play Final Fantasy 25 on the PS5 in another 10 years? Or Resident Evil 12? Should game developers practice a little restraint on this type of thing? Sure the Biohazards and FFs, and GTAs will probably always make a buttload of money for companies that make them, but when is enough enough? Will all Zelda games cease to be made when Miyamoto passes away? Will any future MGS game die with Kojima? Or will their successors continue these games indefinitely? Or perhaps when their successors do take over, the quality will start to decline and then it will be the end of that series.

What do you think about these series that go on forever and ever?

Dracko · . Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613

kuzdu · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:57 am Post subject:

I think that the only thing that's going to stop the predominance of sequels is if somehow individual developers get better known/more credit. Right now if a developer leaves the franchise they helped create, they run the risk of having it ruined by less talented people, or people who are only doing a job and don't care about the game. This is probably why Kojima always says that the next MGS will be his last, but always comes back. If developers thought that leaving a series would have some impact on the public's reception of a game, they might feel more comfortable exploring other creative avenues, and publishers might be a little more hesitant to release sequels after a game's original creators left.

SuperWes · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:31 am Post subject:

Final Fantasy is a really bad example to use here. Recent Final Fantasy games have less in common with each other than every single other game in the jRPG genre have with one another. Square-Enix isn't ashamed of this, and has started making each Final Fantasy "sequel" into its own separate franchise, with multiple Final Fantasy XIIIs coming out, the FFVII Compliation, and the frequent Final Fantasy XI expansion packs. It's really not that difficult to see that Final Fantasy is just a name, and each of its games are basically Square's attempt to pour gobs of money and development time into something that's headed by a talented designer and see what comes out.

Ignoring Square though and moving on to everything else, I hate these topics because they imply that the existance of something on the market somehow directly affects your personal enjoyment of everything else. To use a quote that's been used way too often, "If you don't like something just don't buy it." It's a worthless quote because it's what everyone does by nature. When franchises actually do become stagnant they either fade away or revamp themselves until they are relevant again. It's happened before and it will continue to happen for as long as entertainment exists. The old franchises that are around today still exist because they've been able to keep themselves fresh, and if they can continue to do that, what is there to complain about?

-Wes
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purplechair · . Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 378 Location: in my pants

Wes = Yes.

Swimmy · . Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 990 Location: Fairfax, VA

Dracko · . Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613

Not to mention the Resident Evil and Street Fighter series and pretty much any Capcom franchise. It's milking a fanbase.

Ryan - SuperWes' Bane · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:10 pm Post subject:

I wasn't really implying now, but these kind of games can't go on forever. And I think my hypothetical situation was more along the lines of "in 15 more years, do you really see yourself owning all the FF games 1-15 or all 9 RE games . . ."

Yes the games make money but why not take more ingenious game mechanics or innovation and make a game using those instead of doing the same old same old? Like did you think the Viewtiful Joe battle system and look were a breath of fresh air to a tired 3D platforming format in the USA? I'd SWEAR that Ratchet and Clank/Jak and Daxter are so alike in feel and gameplay that that it's nothing more than a Clone of the original Crash Bandicoot game . . . and I wonder how many more of these games I can stomach before I don't care anymore.Hmmm ... tired ... can't put clear statements together in my head ... I will try tomorrow.

SuperWes · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject:

dhex · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject:

ApM · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:25 pm Post subject:

Honestly, it's pretty much impossible to make generalized statements about sequels. I find myself thinking, well, Final Fantasy keeps itself fresh by rebooting every game, with new characters, new plots, etc. Like summer blockbusters that don't share titles but are, at heart, all the same damn movie. Then I think, maybe this is how epic games have to work so that you don't run into the syndrome of having the same characters overcoming the same obstacles that they supposedly overcame for good last time. But then I think of the Ultima games, which kept itself fresh by evolving the game itself (virtues and all that). Then I think of porn movies with titles like All Anal Slutz 8 or whatever. Then I think about newspaper comic strips that continue rehashing the same tired jokes for years after their original creators have died. Then I fondly recall Space Quest 4, in which Roger Wilco time-travels through his own future sequels (none of which actually ended up getting made). Then I wonder if videogame sequels maybe are constructed similary to, say, TV sitcoms. Then I wonder if the element of interactivity, and general blank-slatiness of player-characters, makes us more willing to accept sequels.

Where's the connecting thread? I don't see one.

So, yeah. Excessive game sequels should die, unless they shouldn't.

kuzdu · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:35 pm Post subject:

I think that it's more like the relationship between mythology and theatre in ancient Greece, where everyone generally knew the stories and what had and was going to happen, so the creativity of a playwright was shown in where he did or did not break with tradition. Then again, I connect everything back to that, so who know?

Dracko · . Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613

Ryan - SuperWes' Bane · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject:

I've actually loved each progressively new Final Fantasy game, and I agree with what you posted Wes. I'm just having a conflict of conscience. As long as we stay away from sequels to these games, the FF series should continue to move forward. But what about the Resident Evil series? RE4 was a great re-envisionment of the series, a great rebirth you could say. The redone RE1 was great, and so was RE0. But wasn't the original 1,2,3 (Nemesis) and even Code Veronica just more of the same? How do you establish progress with those types of games OUTSIDE the graphical loop?

It's a given that each later incarnation of a game will be of much better graphical quality, but what about gameplay? Has the RPG, or Survivor Horror gameplay REACHED their peak in innovation? Are they just trying to squeeze the last bits of juice from a lemon now or what? There needs to be a rebirth in quite a few Genres if we are going to see a FF30 or RE 11 . . .

But I guess fighting games are different. People will probably be playing Tekken 7 soon, or Virtua Fighter 5 . . . that's a given. But fighting games are totally different "animals"

Six · . Joined: 15 Jul 2006 Posts: 313 Location: montreal

dessgeega · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:37 pm Post subject:

those two screenshots actually look like they're essentially the same thing but for graphical differences.

i havn't played any of the series since seven, so i can't really comment on the topic.
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Dracko · . Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613

SuperWes · Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:31 am Post subject:

dhex · Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:52 am Post subject:

well, yesterday i had written this thing about crpgs and jrpgs and how the twain probably won't meet unless oblivion did hellaciously good in japan or something.

i'm playing through fallout 2 right now (well, not right now, but almost right now) and there's a hugely different attitude towards the player than with jrpgs. is one better? certainly. i can't quite prove it though.

anyway, wes raised this point and i responded to it, and then de-posted it but i'm reposting it now:

Ketch · . Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 420

The sad thing is that these "save the world" stories are ones where the world isn't really in peril. Ie. nothing happens if you sit around in a tavern. I'd love to see a new game where the forces of evil are dynamic, like the enemy in the Lord of the Rings books. Where they send out armies to burn down villages ETC.

purplechair · . Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 378 Location: in my pants

I dunno. That's my biggest complaint about Sentient... although if you weren't always a couple of hours away from certain destruction, it probably wouldn't be as engaging.

Ryan - SuperWes' Bane · Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:24 am Post subject:

Was Majora's Mask like that Ketch?

Mr. Mechanical · Friendly Stranger Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1276

dhex · Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:40 am Post subject:

crass analogy time:

crpgs = dozens of bootleged versions of a single song
jrpgs = greatest hits collection

?
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Mr. Mechanical · Friendly Stranger Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1276

When the hell did you get over 2000 posts?

Alc · . Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 109 Location: UK

Swimmy · . Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 990 Location: Fairfax, VA

This just in: every videogame ever is completely terrible.
I really like Breath of Fire III. Am I a bad person?
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"Ayn Rand fans are the old school version of Xenogears fanboys."
-seryogin

purplechair · . Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 378 Location: in my pants

dhex · Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:09 pm Post subject:

mr. mech - 145 posts ago.

DaleNixon · . Joined: 08 Jul 2005 Posts: 179

SuperWes · Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:22 am Post subject:

DaleNixon · . Joined: 08 Jul 2005 Posts: 179

It was more deceptive than most video game commercials I've seen. e.g. Ratchet and Clank commercials, Street Fighter II for SNES commercials, etc.

Dracko · . Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613

Hey, guess what sells them?
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"This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!"

Lestrade · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:16 am Post subject:

I think a lot of the ire towards JRPGs can be blamed on their collective content. As it was said before, the clichéd characters, settings, and storylines are so consistently relied upon, it's easy to become jaded. (See the Grand List of Console RPG Clichés.) Or as Penny Arcade has said about penis jokes: "It's a good well."

That doesn't mean that the game systems themselves aren't often unique or engaging, as Wes has touched upon. However, what people often react to the most is what gets (seemingly) constantly recycled: settings, character architypes, plot points, etc. It's like the classic "In a world..." trailer cliché. How about a JRPG where you aren't saving the world? Or where, just maybe, the situation you face isn't an epic quest? Why not have a game that's a collection of stories (a la Dragon Quest 4) or a series of little adventures, using different characters, or versions of characters as they appear at different points in their lives?

To me, the JRPG formula, from a gameplay point of view, has always seemed like a way to engage people in story-heavy videogames without demanding from the player a lot of the classic videogame "skills"—fast reflexes, good hand-eye coordination, combo memorization, etc. Selecting menus is an interface anyone can understand, providing that the menus are clear enough.

And in this context, I'm completely okay with this. I like games that are little more than interactive stories sometimes. But why not make some games that feature stories players would actually like to experience? I mean, who outside of Akihabara really wants to see the entirety of the Xenosaga series play out? At the end of the day, what do you get from that kind of a plot? Unless you're fourteen or mildly retarded, my guess is: not much.

I wish JRPGs would ditch their fantasy roots and evolve into a proper system, or interface, for a style of game, instead of a genre. Just as Mother/Earthbound is endlessly charming for being a story you can relate to and enjoy using some very well-worn mechanics that most people can understand, I propose that JRPGs become a style of gameplay that learns to embrace myriad settings, stories, and imaginings—not just the tired fantasy genre.

Dracko · . Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613

Yeah, Earthbound managed to be playful and knowing in its story-telling inconsistencies and clichés. It managed to make it all interesting and strange again. And the mechanics ruling its combat, though still grounded in snail paced segments of distanced menu commands and plagued with interludes of inactivity, were basic enough to make it as fast as possible with that particular system. It's frustratingly slow and jarring, because it can't really qualify as a system at all, but I guess it's unavoidable.

Come to think of it, it would be interesting to have seen how involving it could have been if they dumped that shoddy system and possibly even combat altogether, and made it more of an exploratory experience without having to be pulled in and out of it constantly for level ups.
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"This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!"

Swimmy · . Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 990 Location: Fairfax, VA

But then you wouldn't get to fight new-age retro hippies.
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"Ayn Rand fans are the old school version of Xenogears fanboys."
-seryogin

Dracko · . Joined: 10 Oct 2005 Posts: 2613

A compelling argument to be sure.
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"This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!"

Ryan - SuperWes' Bane · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:55 am Post subject:

The problem is not only these games but the linearity. Game developers try to squeeze more graphics, more dialogue, and more of pretty much everything except for innovation. I'm actually playing a nice little game called Saga Frontier 2. What's so different about this game is that while the ending is all the same, you can get there any number of ways. It gives you a choice if you want to play one characters scenarios first, or the others, or mix them all to hell and play things mixed up. I actually killed one of the guys off in a scenario but I'm still playing as him because I didn't finish another scenario as him from an earlier year (the game uses a generations system. Characters die, have kids, the kids take over, etc.)

What's missing from RPGs is choice. Choice to build your own world, go where you want to go, fight what you want to fight, and play the game as you see fit. I sorta liked FFVI because there were so many characters to choose from and at a few points in the game it gave you a choice as to which characters' storyline you wanted to do next. As simple as that you can make a gamer like me happy.

I have also grown to despise the 9 character system that FF has had forever. But I also think the 60 or so characters in Chrono Cross, or the 108 in Suikoden can be a bit much too. But it's all in how you bring them into your party I guess!

dhex · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:12 am Post subject:

ryan: it's really only missing from the console world. western pc rpgs are a whole 'nother kind of beast.

i mean, if you have an xbox you can try morrowind and get a taste of the brew we've been quaffing for years.
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Ryan - SuperWes' Bane · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:37 am Post subject:

No, I know that . . . every MMORPG is totally open ended. And your right, it is only missing from the console world. Perhaps they only continue to release games like FF on the consoles because people actually like a scripted adventure. They like being told what to do, where to go . . . etc. But maybe too many people have caught on and are turning to PC RPGs now. Didn't Fable and Dark Cloud sort of try to the the "choose your own adventure" thing? Mediocre successes if I'm not mistaken ...

SuperWes · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:56 am Post subject:

dhex · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:12 am Post subject:

seryogin · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:13 pm Post subject:

I agree with Lestrade.

Mike, you have a damn good point, but, well, I actually like the silly, immature "I like this girl, but I'm also a monster who has to fight some semblance of his dad at one point." Despite the year of my birth coinciding with the title of that despicable book by George Orwell, I still have yet to evolve into a mature human being. JRPGs, as they are, are unhealthy, but so is coke and let me tell you...
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dessgeega · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:28 pm Post subject:

y'all should play some xanadu. i'm playing it now and having a really good time with it.

alternately, ultima runes of virtue 2.
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Ryan - SuperWes' Bane · Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:09 am Post subject:

That reminds me of Secret of Evermore Ketch . . . remember the 4 different times you travel to? Prehistoric, Ancient Roman, Medievil, and Future.

And Rumblefish, isn't that sort of where RE 4 took the series? Away from zombies and dead things . . . and you say there is a lot left in the Survival Horror Genre . . . I guess Fatal Frame and Dino Crisis are two good examples of something other than zombies, right?

Fatal Frame is good ... what about that Siren game though?