The Gamer's Quarter

[Lestrade]

So it seems that David Jaffe doesn't want to make stories anymore boo hoo. "It's too hard!" he sobs. "I just want to make pure games, that evoke those other emotions!" he wheezes.

David Jaffe sez (fo realz): "And the thing is, once you have the IDEA, your fun- as a designer- is really over." Ignoring for a moment that the man's approximation of an em-dash makes even me look good (hi Tablesaw), I can't believe what I'm reading here.

"Games take a long time to make!" he bawls. "I want a game filled with non-stop, testosterone-bleeding, epic moments of muscular greatness!" he exclaims.

Pardon me if I'm not buying it. David Jaffe, it should be known, rubs me in all the wrong ways (er...). His blog, a constant tribute to his self-important work (Twisted Metal? CRED DOWN), reminds me of a too-young-to-get-it-yet college student's MySpace page. He's going on and on about wanting to throw away stories in his games; I'm sitting here, thinking, Who really cares? Does David Jaffe actually have anything interesting to say anyway?

So maybe it's a good thing that he's foregoing plotlines in his games from now on. I don't think anyone will miss them anyway, as they're lopping off their 1,000th head as a beefed-up Cho Aniki lookalaike.

[SJ]

[SuperWes]

I agree with him 110%. I've been saying that if you want to tell a story you should use a medium that's actually meant to tell stories for a long, long time. It's nice to hear that someone who actually makes games agrees with me.

-Wes
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[dark steve]

Content is the enemy, they say.

[rf]

Ignoring for a moment those developers who make games where the story is the primary purpose, a fun story can add a lot of motivation to a game, even one that already speaks for itself. Whether or not playing with some abstract system is fun, it can't hurt if the game reminds me that the system is really a metaphor for vanquishing evil, or whatever.

[SJ]

[Dracko]

That's a pretty tall order coming from a man who has yet to write anything worth a damn.

Half-Life 2 and Shadow of the Colossus tell their stories fine within the mechanics of their game design.
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"This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!"

[SJ]

[ApM]

[DaleNixon]

There are some games out there with some pretty horrible stories crammed in just for the hell of it. I'm just saying...

[dessgeega]

let's execute the crap out of those ideas okay.

also the narrative potential of videogames is being squandered on cutscenes and dialogue boxes.
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[Dracko]

[a_plus]

I'll go one step further!
Post-cartidge-based-storage, there shouldn't be cutscenes, and very few dialog boxes in games. If you can't explain things in gameplay, maybe you should seek out a different medium.

[DaleNixon]

lol Final Fantasy VII

[dark steve]

[kuzdu]

Seems like a hell of a roundabout way of saying it.

[dark steve]

This is likely related.

[macdonaldez]

Er, so do you guys think that because a game is a different medium, and has the potential to deliver narrative based entirely on gameplay, driven by the player, this means that it shouldn't include cutscenes or dialogue boxes, and such mechanisms for delivery of content are, in fact, a load of old shit, spawned by El Diablo himself?
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"You spoony bard!"

[simplicio]

My big-dream-game-which-shall-never-be-made (TM) involved not just a branching storyline, but an entirely variable presentation. So much of videogame "creativity" is based around the story, while the other elements of the game (what and how you're seeing, hearing, responding to, etc.) are taken as a given, probably due to our established cognitive links to art and storyform.

So SotC approached this on tiptoes, with a protagonist that noticably changed appearance to mirror his decline. But that in some ways serves to remove the player from the experience, thinking "Oh, he's changing." Now what if instead, the collossi, and more importantly the landscape all increasingly changed in appearance as you progressed. Wouldn't that provide a greater association with the (anti)hero and his plight? A greater sense of disorientation and alienation?

So no, dialog boxes/cutscenes aren't totally unnecesary, and they certainly have value in many situations, but using them as the sole narrative device is a bit like have the rest of orchestra sit around while the percussion section takes a (15-30 hour) solo.

[Ketch]

[Dracko]

Final Fantasy is by far a large culprit in CG cutscnes over anything remotely approaching a thrill. SquareSoft would be better off just making anime. I can't see how anyone can justify their jRPGs as games at all, let alone interesting ones.
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"This is the most fun I've ever had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!"

[SuperWes]

[Pijaibros]

It's regarded as the best because it was many players first RPG. Everyone remembers their first time experiencing something new.

Phantasy Star II struck a chord with me for the same reason FFVII strikes a chord with many people today.

It probably really is horrible, but it being my first game with a main character that died makes it special.

[Dracko]

[ApM]

[SJ]

[SuperWes]

[GSL]

All the cool kids now hate Final Fantasy VII. Come on man, everyone's doing it.

[dessgeega]

wait, there's a game in final fantasy vii?

oh, well i guess that submarine sim counts.

(hi Greatsaintlouis.)
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[Dracko]

[Ketch]

I'd love to see an RPG that focuses on integrating the combat - gameplay into the story / experience. It wouldn't be save the world, more survive in this cool fantasy environment. You would be able to brag about the amount of fugitives you had captured, and people would start looking up to you more.

Surely the true story in most (RPG) games is that of a) how you accustom to the gamesystems, b) how well you play c) the process of discovery and exploration.

Ie. Starting off as a 8 stone weakling getting sand kicked in your character's face, before becoming rich famous bad-ass explorers?

[ryan]

A few games are kind of like that: Mount & Blade and Seventh Cross Evolution immediately come to mind. They aren't in the traditional RPG mold, but still offer a pretty unique experience that emphasis change for you, the world, and how you interact with it.

If Mount & Blade had enough backing, it would be one of the best games to date of any genre. Even in its early forms I've spent over 200 hours playing it. It recently got picked up for Paradox's Gamer's Gate, but I don't know how far they are to delivering a product that those who haven't willingly sent promissory money on will enjoy.
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Come to me, Mordel. We shall depart.

[TheRumblefish]

[quote="Dracko"]

[GSL]

[ryan]

I played through Final Fantasy VII back when it first came out - ignoring the date to not feel older than I should - and had a good enough time with it. The only out-and-out RPGs I really enjoyed up until that point was Ultima: Exodus on the NES and Wizardry VI on the PC. It clicked with me. It didn't make me want to quote lines from it or think about it incessantly - for the latter I had Dragon Force - but I had my fun.

I wanted to replay it last year, but deus (deus, come post here) warned me against it. He said that any fond memories I have would be shattered by the poor localization, controls, silliness, etc. Or something along those lines - I suppose he'll have to come to corret me! ha ha! So I decided not to. I think that might be a problem with many. They have fond memories of game that, at the time, was something exciting for the genre and was for many the first RPG they completed. Going back to that and having it register as 'What the hell is this crap?!' is certainly to create some backlash. Maybe some enterprising folk are bypassing that altogether and just jumping to the 'it's crap!' stage.

I'm just going to leave it be and remember it as the game that kept me from going crazy after foot surgery.
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Come to me, Mordel. We shall depart.

[Alc]

I suppose I'm in a minority in that I didn't play it when it first came out. None of my friends at the time really had Playstations, and the ones that did weren't playing RPGs anyway. Mostly we were all far too busy killing each other at various forms of Quake. Mid to late-ish 90's era console games are things I've visited over the last few years, really. I played FFVII a year and a half ago, and completed it. So I feel fairly justified when I say that I don't see what the fuss is about. I understand the "punk rock" analogy and it's certainly accurate in a lot of cases, but that isn't to say there's not some truth in the criticisms as well.

[GSL]

[dark steve]

[DaleNixon]

I've always hated FFVII. I never did it to be cool. In fact, I was a complete idiot back when I made the decision that I hated it. There I was, clinging to my Sega Saturn... I went to a friend who owned a Playstation's house and he had rented FFVII. All I remember is seeing some kind of CG movie and him saying "MAN, LOOK AT THOSE GRAPHICS!" I decided that day that I hated that game. I blamed the game for my friend's ridiculous ingorance.

The game that made me buy a Playstation was Need for Speed 3: Hot Pursuit.

[Harveyjames]

[dessgeega]

i think cutscenes can only really work when they're actually cutscenes. like, cut-away. "meanwhile, it a totally different place where the player can exert no control."

taking away the player's autonomy over the player character rarely sits right with me.
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[dark steve]

I mean. What would you think of a film that had to stop and explain the story with several paragraphs of text every fifteen minutes?

[Harveyjames]

[dark steve]

I mean, strictly speaking, you COULD have cutscenes and it wouldn't negatively impact the game, in the same way that it's not completely implausible to think up a film where you can replace scenes with text (or add SOUND and COLOR OH YIKES) and it would mesh for whatever reason. But it's not the purest form of expression a game should be able to give you.

[kuzdu]

Yeah, but how many people really enjoy the purest form of cinema?

[dark steve]

Pure cinema isn't a big deal at all. It's just "show, don't tell." A pure game just has to express itself through play above all else.

[kuzdu]

Hmm, I don't know if I agree with that, dark steve. 'Pure Cinema' is a very specific term that covers a lot of stuff that I can't really sit through too many times. I mean I'm glad it's out there making the point, fighting the fight, but it's just one type of expression of which the medium is capable.

[a_plus]

[macdonaldez]

I don't know what everyone's opinion of it is, but i have to say that i'm enjoying Warrior Within quite a lot at the moment (yes, i realise that in some circles, i would now be considered to be not only a heretic, but also a loser, and a motherfucker), and maybe it's only me, but i also quite enjoy the cutscenes, as they help demonstrate the prince's thoughts, crassly teen-edgy and brooding though he may be. I haven't made much progress so far, but they definitely intrigued me, and increased my enjoyment of the platforming and fighting. Without those cutscenes, i it would be still an enjoyable game to me, but i think they frame the action nicely.

Heretic?
Loser?
Motherfucker?
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"You spoony bard!"

[Dracko]