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Donkey Kong Country: as bad as all that?

 
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kirkjerk
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 8:04 am    Post subject: Donkey Kong Country: as bad as all that? Reply with quote

So I'm gradually plowing my way through all the back issues of TGQ...
I think I will shill out for one or two, but right now I'm enjoying the virtualness, as it jives more w/ my efforts to be less cluttered in general (actually maybe I'd rather just make a paypal donation, do they have that? Or I'd just like some stickers...)

ANYWAY, reading issue 3's piece by Amandeep Jutla on the scism between PC and console game design...good stuff, but then I read "polished turds like Donkey Kong Country"

First off, yes, it is a beautiful looking game, especially for its era. It has good music, great ambience. I'm not crazy about how its general look has taken over the Nintendo handheld 2D market at the cost of good old "pixel art", but I don't think you can blame the game for that....

I think the game plays really well. The characters all feel a bit oversized, but that chunkiness is part of the fun. The boss battles are solid, even if they repeat. But I think most important is the great 2-player modality of it. I have never seen a game that's so much fun to take a non- or puzzle-only- gamer through. My Aunt (and later, old girlfriend -- different woman I mean) loved it, and if a part seemed too tough she could swap out, or if she got hit it would switch to me automagically.

It's not a perfect game, the boss fights repeat, "Funky Kong" is typical 90s awesomradiness, there's a temptation to stockpile lives so you don't have to worry about it later, but a polished turd? Polished, yes, turd, not so much.
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Dracko
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its sequel is far superior in every way, I feel.

Its difficulty doesn't come off as ponderous or the result of clunky game design.
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never tried the sequel, maybe I should grab it and go...

it has the same tag team mechanic?

And are we talking 2, 3, or both?
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think by describing the game as a "polished turd" ajutla is suggesting it is a case of "style over substance". i consider this to be fairly typical of rare's design philosophy, too. they've championed a lot of bad tropes of game design: donkey kong country's minecart rides, banjo-kazooie's piles of mandatory collectibles.

the level design in donkey kong country feels a lot like going through the motions, like they're just there because they needed a game to show off their pretty rendered graphics. which pale beside that of its contemporary, yoshi's island. especially all these years later.
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yoshi's Island. The one game that completely justified my SNES.

kirkjerk wrote:
And are we talking 2, 3, or both?

2. Just 2. 3 is beyond horrible.
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't realize we weren't supposed to like DKC. Never played 3, but I liked 1 and 2 a lot. I still listen to the music from those games. Maybe I just never played enough generic platformers to get sick of generic platformers, if that's what those are.

The only thing that really bugged me about DKC was the way the characters had that sort of corporate board room "cool" that seems to infest so many platformers.

That N64 DKC game, though--wow. I put it in, watched that opening movie, and ripped the cartridge from the console, never to touch it again. I don't know or care whether the actual game's any good.
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wourme wrote:
I didn't realize we weren't supposed to like DKC.


yeah, well i just got the memo this morning so i hurridly threw together a post. that's how i decide what games i like and dislike, since i'm basically incapable of forming and holding my own opinion.
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
i think by describing the game as a "polished turd" ajutla is suggesting it is a case of "style over substance". i consider this to be fairly typical of rare's design philosophy, too. they've championed a lot of bad tropes of game design: donkey kong country's minecart rides, banjo-kazooie's piles of mandatory collectibles.


Rare's not above thowing in some cliches but they did some really conceptually interesting stuff on the N64 (heh, mostly in 1997, judging by http://rareware.com/games/timeline/all_timeline.html )

Blast Corps was a terrific and original game, clearing out the path of an ever-moving truck was a great bit of indirection, and there was some challenging and cool level designs and vehicles and mechs to take over.

People love Goldeneye. Never my cuppa, but I don't have a strong reason to think its repuation is undeserved...

Diddy Kong Racing is a spectacular kart game... its powerup system is unbiased and unrandom, for one thing, with stackable items that always appear in the same place, rather than being a big ol' rubberband. (the downside is sometimes races are decided a little too quickly, the opening quarter lap can totally make or break a race) The kart racing mechanic isn't as satisfying as Mario Kart 64, but it adds hovercraft and airplane modes, and has in my opinion much stronger battle modes than MK... plus, the only worthwhile one player mode I've seen in a game like that, including some fun boss battles.

Even DK64 (playing that through over 2 or 3 days warped my real world depth perception) had its decent points, despite the blatant collect-a-thon issues... in particular the boss fights were worthwhile, and I give them props for having a "warp to bossfight" bonus menu. And once you see past Conker's middle school dialog and voiceacting is a pretty good wrapper for some fun game play.

Quote:
the level design in donkey kong country feels a lot like going through the motions, like they're just there because they needed a game to show off their pretty rendered graphics. which pale beside that of its contemporary, yoshi's island. especially all these years later.


Once or twice I've failed to get over the Yoshi's Island learning curve. I heavily dig Yoshi's Story though.

And like I said, few games I've seen (at least 2D....most co-op FPS games allow this) foster such piggy-backing for a gamer and a n00b as DKC.

Quote:
eah, well i just got the memo this morning so i hurridly threw together a post. that's how i decide what games i like and dislike, since i'm basically incapable of forming and holding my own opinion.


I hope you were taking umbrage at the idea of "we weren't supposed to like X" as opposed to me talking about non-flamish disagreements with opinions from articles...
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kirkjerk
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wourme wrote:
The only thing that really bugged me about DKC was the way the characters had that sort of corporate board room "cool" that seems to infest so many platformers.

That N64 DKC game, though--wow. I put it in, watched that opening movie, and ripped the cartridge from the console, never to touch it again. I don't know or care whether the actual game's any good.

Yeah, Rare was pretty heavy handed w/ the DK property and "boardroom cool". The opening "DK rap" was that in spades, though I can't help wondering if innuendo like "His coconut gun, can fire in spurts, if he shoots ya, it's gonna hurt" was intentional.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
I hope you were taking umbrage at the idea of "we weren't supposed to like X" as opposed to me talking about non-flamish disagreements with opinions from articles...


the umbrage is definitely not taken from (toward?) your direction!

goldeneye is pretty good stuff, though it's not my sort of thing either. and blast corps is pretty interesting though i've never gotten the opportunity to play very much of it. but aside from those i tend to find rare's titles vapid and/or misdirected.

yoshi's story is sorely underrated.
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, like I said, Diddy Kong racing really had some innovative ideas in the Kart genre

Rare has definately taken a dive, MS should be rightfully ticked. I heard there's a developer chain connecting Golden Eye and Time Splitters, which I've enjoyed, even though the story elements are hit or miss (and some have complained bitterly about the zoomed in scope mode control)

Yoshi's Story, besides being a relatively rare 2D title from that era, had that cool storybook motif (a lot more fun than the flat "paper" theme running through some of their games, though they have some cool twists on that)... but mostly I love that screen where you "pick your yoshi"...just the way they're all wandering around, doing their thing, and then you make your selection and he scurries off to the side...
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinking back, I really enjoyed most of Rare's games as a child, but now, I can clearly see the aspects which are very broken.
Some still hold up though. DKC2 holds up very well, for example, as a lot of people have said. I have both the DKC2 and DKC3 port for the GBA, and I think that DKC3 was quite good, even if it was hopelessly stupid.
Diddy Kong Racing still holds up very well, and I'm really glad that it's coming out for the DS. I really look forward to it, as I loved the N64 version, although it was far too difficult for me as a child.
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toto wrote:
Thinking back, I really enjoyed most of Rare's games as a child, but now, I can clearly see the aspects which are very broken.


As do I.

DKC was a really good multiplayer game (even though I always thought competitive mode was useless even when I was younger), but the level design (with the exception of the few "human cannonball but with apes in barrels" levels) was decidedly generic. To me, the graphics don't hold up as well as say, Yoshi's Island's graphics, either.

Donkey Kong 64 though... gah. The only thing really good about this one was the included expansion pak because I hear those are pretty hard to find lately. It's like Rare took a bunch of stuff they felt like every successful game had to have like weaponry and multiplayer, shoved it into a blender, dumped an overwhelming dose of Rare's secret "item collection" spices on the resulting sludge, and poured it into an N64 cart. I think it probably could've worked as a non-expansion pak title, honestly... the whole thing was probably a gimmick they used to whore the fact that their last big, new Donkey Kong game was revolutionary, graphics-wise.
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OtakupunkX wrote:
Donkey Kong 64 though... gah. The only thing really good about this one was the included expansion pak because I hear those are pretty hard to find lately. It's like Rare took a bunch of stuff they felt like every successful game had to have like weaponry and multiplayer, shoved it into a blender, dumped an overwhelming dose of Rare's secret "item collection" spices on the resulting sludge, and poured it into an N64 cart. I think it probably could've worked as a non-expansion pak title, honestly... the whole thing was probably a gimmick they used to whore the fact that their last big, new Donkey Kong game was revolutionary, graphics-wise.

Well, like I said, I think the beauty of DK64 was in its bossfights, and I really loved that I could come back and replay any bossfight I'd already won. I wish Wind Waker had had the same thing, instead they just have a reprise of some earlier fights later in the game. (Admittedly, Zela/Metroid games have the replay issue of having to know what arsenal to give you, since they're all about leveling up)

I actually wrote a DK64 bossfight FAQ that was turned down by GameFAQs... I thought I had some original strategies for tough fights the other guides glossed over, but hey. Still, some of the bosses were great, like the Dragonfly (more dragon than fly) and especially "King Kut Out", which was something worthy of the muppets, I swear.
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirkjerk wrote:
Well, like I said, I think the beauty of DK64 was in its bossfights, and I really loved that I could come back and replay any bossfight I'd already won.


I had totally forgotten about the bossfights. I must say, I did enjoy fighting the jack-in-a-box thing (am I thinking of the same game?).
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, "Mad Jack" in Frantic Factory according to my FAQ. Save for the final boss which is actually divided into multiple rounds, I spend the most time talking about that guy in the FAQ. Funny how he sounded so much like Donald Duck.
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People who don't like DKC generally played it well after release. Also I know that one of the main complaints is about things like: You need to roll off a cliff/ledge (where you are still "on" a platform, but hovering over nothingness) then jump to make certain jumps. On top of the weird 3D/2D models that really suck.

I can't remember really liking or hating the game, but I know I didn't like it enough to warrent a purchase of it when I finally got around to buying my own SNES.
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
People who don't like DKC generally played it well after release. Also I know that one of the main complaints is about things like: You need to roll off a cliff/ledge (where you are still "on" a platform, but hovering over nothingness) then jump to make certain jumps. On top of the weird 3D/2D models that really suck.

Well, I thought the models were ok. And the backgrounds were lush and lovely, especially the jungle leaves and then ambience of the underwater levels.

And as for the roll/jump thing... I don't see it as being worse than game that sports a "double jump"
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never really had a problem with the game mechanics (save for the minecart sections) at all. In fact, I never noticed that I didn't like the game that much until a year or so ago when I replayed the game out of boredom.

I think it's mainly the level design that turned me off of the game. It's an alright multiplayer game though when played co-operatively.
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blast Corps is one of the best (and cheapest) reasons to own an N64. I really hope that Motorstorm for the PS3 ends up being some kind of spiritual successor. It's not by the same team or anything, but from what I've seen of the engine it looks like their hearts might be in the right place.

I was actually a big fan of Rare in the N64 days. I really dug Goldeneye, Diddy Kong Racing, and Banjo Tooie back in the day. I actually liked Donkey Kong 64 enough to actually finish it, and I'd even go as far as saying it gets a worse rap than it deserves.

But this is about Donkey Kong Country.

When Donkey Kong Country was released I was riding high on the hypewagon. I got the Nintendo Power video and watched that section over and over again, entranced by the bored voice of the tester who was explaining how to pass the difficult section of a game that nobody had even played yet. Upon its release I played it daily until I finished it, noting how each level had its own distinct feeling and set of challenges in the same way that Mario games did. However, unlike any of the Mario games, once I finished DKC I never found a reason to go back. These days I rarely go back to games after completing them, but in 16-bit era - a time when I got 12 games a year instead of 12 games a month - things was very different.

I distinctly remember the moment when I put the game in to attempt a replay and found myself devoid of feelings upon flipping on the power. I loved the soundtrack, I loved the way the trees looked, I loved timing my presses of the barrel guns, but I no longer loved playing the game to see these elements come together. The bored tinge in the testers voice on the video that once got me pumped for the game was now clearly understandable. The fact that this was the game that made me realize Mario games consist of a single unique challenge stretched out for an entire stage was simply an indication that Rare had made DKC by layering an uninspired game atop an inspired template. Some of the magic was there, but why wouldn't I just play the source instead of its derivative?

At the time I attributed my growing distate of the game to its graphics. I knew that it was technically amazing, but nearly everything (barring the trees) was devoid of style. The art assets matched the tye-dye Donkey Kong shirt that I got for pre-ordering the game - they were guaudy and without an ounce of subtlety. Looking back and thinking hard it's obvious now that things below the shiny surface were just as gaudy.

Donkey Kong Country might have been a good game the first time through, but its significance as one of the first games I've played that reveals its shallow colors almost immediately upon subsequent playthrough left a historically bad taste in my mouth.

Then again, maybe I'm just being dramatic. Should I try it again?

-Wes
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperWes wrote:
I actually liked Donkey Kong 64 enough to actually finish it, and I'd even go as far as saying it gets a worse rap than it deserves.

Not to mention getting a bad rap for having the worst rap.
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Then again, maybe I'm just being dramatic. Should I try it again?

Not on your own, but maybe along w/ a novice gamer?
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
People who don't like DKC generally played it well after release. Also I know that one of the main complaints is about things like: You need to roll off a cliff/ledge (where you are still "on" a platform, but hovering over nothingness) then jump to make certain jumps. On top of the weird 3D/2D models that really suck.

I can't remember really liking or hating the game, but I know I didn't like it enough to warrent a purchase of it when I finally got around to buying my own SNES.

I played it when it was released. Rented it, but didn't enjoy it at all. Found it boring. I was very much a youngin at the time.

However, DKC 2, I rented once, loved it, rented it again and again and again.

Just saying.
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i played donkey kong country when it was first released.
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading over this thread, a lot of things have come back to me about this game.

Like others have said, the graphics blew my mind at the time, but they really haven't aged well at all: I wonder how many games over the past generation that have pushed graphics won't stand the test of time.

The myriad secrets were useless to a great degree. Get a free life balloon, get a letter of 'k-o-n-g', get a bunch of bananas--it didn't really mean anything in the long run. The entire game was a vacuous forbearer of the Banjo-Kazooie/DK64 game style that I despise.

However, the game sucked me in because it was so packed full of secrets, even if they were meaningless. I scoured every stage multiple times, pounding all the cracks in trees for bananas, doing extra-quick barrel roll jumps (a move I thought was one of the best features of the game) for a free-life balloon that was floating a way, riding barrels into walls to see if they would break open. I won't forget the day I accidentally found out that there was a secret barrel in the pit below the screen if you jumped over the one that shot you into the mine cart in that first mine cart level. The general level design not counting the secrets isn't all terrible either. I defy any of you to go back and play "Stop and Go Station" and tell me it's not one of the most inventive and challenging levels of platforming you've ever played.

And I don't praise this in video games all too often, but the sound was really top notch. It made every pointless thing you were doing so satisfying. Did anybody else just bounce around on tires way longer than they should have just because of that crisp *boing* sound? Or jump on every snake that came your way even if you didn't need to (or risked being hurt) just because of that perfect hiss noise they made when they rolled up and flew off the screen? The music is even better than the effects, to the point that a buddy of mine actually made a really awesome beat out of the water level theme. I freestyled over it and it was sick.

I also had a great time when I was younger going to Candy's save point. She blew kisses at Donkey Kong from across the screen that would float over towards him as little hearts. I would always turn around to leave when the heart got right to me so that it looked like she was kissing my ass.

So my response to the question posed in the title of this thread is that it wasn't a terrible game to play, but it set some awful precedents that have not done gaming any favors.
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TGQ Forums I announce a landmark: Wes and I agree on something.
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

helicopterp I like your thoughtful and balanced answer.

The sound FX were top-notch...the underwater bubbling combined w/ the mood music and the parallax and water blur was a helluva combination.

And other people have critizied the feel of the 2D/3D control, but it had some great kinetic elments to it, I had forgotten about that fast barrel roll, but between it and the roll/airjump, and some other things (that's where DK's groundslap started, right?) were neat. Also, the assymetry in abilities between DK and Diddy...

On the other hand, the precedent of item collect-a-thons...bleh.
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys I think we're forgetting Battletoads in Battlemaniacs here.

I MEAN COME ON RIGHT?

best. game. ever
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Apol wrote:
Guys I think we're forgetting Battletoads in Battlemaniacs here.

I MEAN COME ON RIGHT?

best. game. ever

Was that the one where the classic-8-bit looking space invaders would steal life bars directly from the life bar indicator, rather than by attacking the player directly? I always thought that sounded like a brilliant bit of breaking the 4th wall.
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="kirkjerk"]
SuperWes wrote:
Then again, maybe I'm just being dramatic. Should I try it again?


No. But play DKC2. It really does deserve all the praise it gets. In fact, if sounds isn't important to you, get the GBA version. The GBA versions sounds sound terrible. But if you play your GBA on mute, mostly, I highly recommend it.
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't play DKC without the music. Nice to know that they messed it up on the handheld versions so that I never pick them up for my GB Player, thinking they are the same as on SNES. (I made that mistake recently with GBC Blaster Master.)

Playing DKC2 without sound would mean missing out on the brambles song, which is the most memorable thing in the game by far for me.
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