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A WANDERER, A WEASEL, AND THE TRIP THROUGH IMPASSE VALLEY
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so this stupid death is actually o-ryu's, as i'm not dead yet. (i turned the game off on floor 16.)

stepping into the marsh i was quickly surrounded by an absorber larva and a sabre gator, who were taking turns bapping me. being the quick-witted person she is, o-ryu blinded the gator. i took a step back, and the absorber followed me - right in front of the gator. the blind gator attacked what was in front of it, and the absorber went splat. this earned the gator a level up.

unable to see, the beast lumbered about looking for something to kill. and o-ryu, bless her sweet heart, gave it a smack. the creature turned to her, claws lifted.

splat.

poor, poor o-ryu.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cry not for O-ryu waits only for the next walk through the Impasse.

That sounded more poetic in my mind.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slain in table mountain by a damn minotaur.

while starving.

yep.
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LordGek
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the adventerous among you...

http://www.shiren.jp/install.html

This is a fully legal and official link to the 2002 Windows version of this game! Its in Japanese, of course, so you'll need to setup your system to allow Japanese text (just make sure its an enabled in your Regional/Language settings) and your good to go.

Just using that FAQ I earlier provided a link for and being somewhat familiar with this English patched SNES version you'll be up to speed in no time although a few items and creatures seem to have been added (some of the creatures we're familiar with in the SNES version are still there but now show up much sooner or later in the game's hierarchy of beasties). I'm really enjoying the slick Windows/Mouse optimized interface (those diagonal movements are now a breeze).

Lastly, I'm still confused if this is the complete offline mode of the PC game or just a somehow limited demo. There USED to be some sort of paid online service with the game but its just recently been discontinued so they may actually be giving away this offline component of the game.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am in table mountain. my farsight bracer allows me to see a room packed with items and one creature. i picked up a pickaxe in the mountain grotto, and i decide to equip it. it's cursed. my katana +6!

with a pickaxe welded to my hand, i decide to start digging. what i find is a hidden money vault, guarded by a single sleeping master chicken. i quickly loot it, but the guard wakes up, and another master chicken and minotaur have followed me into the vault. and my weapon is this useless pickaxe -1.

i read an airslash scroll, turning one of the master chickens back into a chicken and leaving the minotaur wounded but not dead. it hits me, and hits hard - i'm nearly dead, and pinned against the wall.

in desperation i fling my katana +6 at it. my katana saves me, finishing off the minotaur, but is destroyed in the process. but there's still one master chicken left.

i check my pockets - what do i have? a swap staff. i zap the master chicken, we switch places, and i pummels me to death.

level 16, weilding a cursed pickaxe -1 and a cursed iron shield +3, with a max hp of 78 and a max satiation of 120%, whupped by master chicken in table mountain.

the new bug is sometimes when i move from floor to floor the game will reset to the chunsoft screen, and there will be no sound. i'll have to turn the console off and then back on. again, everything's saved so i don't lose anything.
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Shapermc
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which emulator is everyone using to play this. Because I am so on this.

And I don't really think I can get a Game Doctor :'(
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So is something happening that I don't know about or am I making no progress at all? Esentially, can this game be completed on your first play through if you are good/lucky?
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

snes9x runs the patched rom perfectly, as far as i can tell. (let the slug go, matt!)

and no one will complete this game on a first try. most of progress in this game is learning how to deal with different monsters/use your inventory effectively.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
So is something happening that I don't know about or am I making no progress at all? Esentially, can this game be completed on your first play through if you are good/lucky?


This game WILL frustrate you and have you starting from scratch again and again. However, it also does a great job of throwing in new encounters, items, etc. in these runs throught eh same areas so they don't feel so painfully redundant.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i actually don't find shiren frustrating at all; i think that's because it's so briskly paced - as opposed to pc roguelikes at least, where it can take hours to develop a new character to formidability (which is a word).
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LordGek wrote:
Shapermc wrote:
So is something happening that I don't know about or am I making no progress at all? Esentially, can this game be completed on your first play through if you are good/lucky?


This game WILL frustrate you and have you starting from scratch again and again. However, it also does a great job of throwing in new encounters, items, etc. in these runs throught eh same areas so they don't feel so painfully redundant.

I don't really find it frustrating as much as repetitve. Replaying huge chunks of Resident Evil is what I find frustrating.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm really impressed by the way this game is designed around the idea of trial and error. Most of the time when trial and error is involved in a game it's of the "try until you get it right" type. Because the situations in this game are always changing, it's a more organic way of learning. You aren't really punished for dying. I mean, you go back to town, but they make that a part of playing right.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I demand that everyone in this thread, who has not already done so, goes and downloads issue 1 of TGQ and reads: Starting From Scratch by ApM.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So is anyone else under the impression that this is almost the missing link between Rogue and Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So... Shirin just clicked on my walk home.

This game is the penultimate "Learning by death" structure. This game (and others like it) need to be studied by shooter companies. Basically this is a game that must be beaten in one run. So knowing this small things were inserted to keep you interested as you try and try again. This kind of addition would create an amazing level when porting an arcade shooter to a home console and just titling it "console mode" or something. Vasara has some really neat elements to it which would lead to this kind of ethos better.

Also, this makes me upset as hell that I managed to let people convince me not to buy Dragon Quarter.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's learning without rote memorization. which is why it feels so satisfying.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes!

Its all about adapting to a semi randomized environemnt. There are some basic parameters you can count on, like on this level I know I'll mainly be facing these three types of creatures, but where you'll find them, what items you'll find, where the traps are located, etc. will always be different so there is no simple learning the one correct way to beat any part of the game. This, to me, makes the game feel so fresh and that you might be running into some sort of combination of encounters and items found that nobody else playing this game ever experienced the exact same way.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
So... Shirin just clicked on my walk home.

This game is the penultimate "Learning by death" structure. This game (and others like it) need to be studied by shooter companies. So knowing this small things were inserted to keep you interested as you try and try again.


Yes, it would be fun to see a combination of Warning Forever and a vertical sc,rolling randomised shooter. Sure you can complete it the first time, but the game is like a shaggy dog story. each time you play it the number of enemies changes and the boss gets tougher.

This would be the ultimate in New Game +.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I just had an awesome run. You can't just ... start over again after one of these.

Extra! Extra! Extra!

Story: Level 11, with O-ryu (Who I helped against my better judgement). I also had my Bro for a little bit but he was weak and died very quickly. My guess is it is from all the booze he was drinking. I had even masterfully defeated a few monster traps by playing my cards (spells) right. I had a ton of food. I had a +3 Katana and a +2 Todo shield. I even had a todo stealing pot. I had a far seeing bracer so I knew just where to go for everything. And I was kicking major ass. I thought, just maybe I could do it this time. Then some stupid pumpkin head kept circling me. I could not hit him at all and O-Ryu did nothing to help! Alas, I was defeated at the hands of a Pumpkin head.

Also! If you stay at the inn, over night, while O-ryu is in your party... does that mean that you slept with O-ryu? In another life may I run into my own son?! I shal find out next week on Lives of Our Day.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say that Nethack and Angband (the two roguelikes with which I have the most experience) also have the Learning by Dying thing going on, the difference being that they don't give you anything when you start over and when you die, you're losing up to months of gameplay, rather than hours. I can see why most of the people who play them are sysadmins or Europeans (and are most likely to be European sysadmins).

Did the GBC Mysterious Dungeon ever get an English translation? Are they planning to make a GBA/DS version? I have a feeling that I would play this game a lot more if I could do it on a portable.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratchmonkey wrote:
Did the GBC Mysterious Dungeon ever get an English translation?


not as far as i know! it's very lovely, though, and you're encouraged to pull it up in an emu*.

the particularly nifty thing about it is it will save a replay of the whole stage you died on.

* emulator, not a large flightless bird.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never in English, grrr.

But, if you can tolerate Poekmon, there hopefully will be a Mysterious Dungeon game based on them coming out here soon enough (have yet to hear a date but they at least say it will be converted over). I played a lot of the Japanese version and while nowhere quite as cool as the Torneko or Shiren Mysterious Dungeon games, its still pretty good.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never gotten along with dungeon crawlers of any sort. However this game is changing my perceptions on this sub-genre. There is really something special here. I just wish I had some more time right now to fully enjoy it. Maybe over the weekend I can share some of my deaths.

The first time I started the game, I walked out into a forest and was mauled by "Bean Orcs" or some kind of monster that had "Bean" in it's name. This is going to be fun, I can feel it.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh this game DEFINITELY has a sense of humor!

Initially I just thought it was the translators having fun taking some possibly serious game and putting their own tongue-in-cheek spin on all the dialog and names but some of the actual game design, creatures and actions make it pretty clear this game has a pretty playful nature.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daikon Monsters are by far my favorite creature I have seen yet.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheRumblefish wrote:
The first time I started the game, I walked out into a forest and was mauled by "Bean Orcs" or some kind of monster that had "Bean" in it's name. This is going to be fun, I can feel it.
"Bean Bandits."

Someone had a lot of fun with the translation.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



MONSTER HOUSE!!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked

It's rogue, not daleks!
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LordGek
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless you have a couple of select scrolls, this is often the last area you're characer will ever see before he's served up.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LordGek wrote:
Unless you have a couple of select scrolls, this is often the last area you're characer will ever see before he's served up.


tell me about it! i'd burned three confuse scrolls in summit woods that game.

yikes.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the one cool thing about those monster rooms since its ALL ONE ROOM so anything that effects everybody in a room will get EVERYONE ON THE LEVEL!
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is a tip: do not put enemies between skeleton mages and yourself.

i was running from mushas in summit woods, because my blowback staff had run out of charges (that's the point of summit woods, you know. to test whether you've found and identified enough useful staffs*). a skeleton mage was following further behind, and zapped its wand of random effects in my direction.

it hit the musha i was trying to avoid killing and hasted it. now running was no longer an option. i started hacking at the musha with my katana +2. the mage zapped the musha again, knocking it into me - for a total of five damage, killing it. earning the skeleton mage a level-up into a skeleton wizard.

it put me to sleep and dizzied me and was next to me before i had time to do anything. my airslash scroll did not kill it. and so i met another grizzly end.

* i think the plural of staff might be "staves", actually?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, it's staves.

And I would be playing more of this game if I could pull myself away from Angband. I'm playing it hardcore-style and as a result I'm going very very slowly.

I haven't beaten the game since 1996.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nightmare of druaga is the angband of the fushigi no dungeon series.

just for future reference.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
nightmare of druaga is the angband of the fushigi no dungeon series.

just for future reference.


Is that a good or a bad thing? NoD really left me cold as I HATED playing in preset dungeon levels (sure there were the randomized bonus levels but they were just insanely hard and you couldn't get any experience for all of your derring do in them) and the cheesey Silver and Gold Chest stuff I found pretty lame (especially since they just decided to LEAVE OUT the oracle that gave you hints in the English port of the game toward these chests). Last but not least I found the weapon/armor melding SOOOO neutered. Sure games like this one sometimes let you get out of control in your crazy combos, but in that game you had to meld a single weapon 15x BEFORE it could start taking on the special abiliities of its next meld!
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LordGek wrote:
dessgeega wrote:
nightmare of druaga is the angband of the fushigi no dungeon series.


Is that a good or a bad thing?


well, the lack of randomized dungeons is probably the weakest part of druaga, but it doesn't enter into this analogy.

what i mean is this: shiren is closer to the pc roguelike nethack, where the emphasis is on using craftiness and tools you've found to escape tricky situations. druaga is closer to angband, where you're expected to hack, hack, hack through monster after monster.

i prefer the nethack model. but many prefer angband, or even adom, the maniacs.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that Angband doesn't require you to use craftiness and tools to escape tricky situations, it's just less of the focus of the game.

And funnily enough, it's Nethack that comes closer to preset levels than Angband.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratchmonkey wrote:
And funnily enough, it's Nethack that comes closer to preset levels than Angband.


well.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I got the druaga PS2 game from Toups for my Birthday... and now I find out it is not going to be good. I am a sad panda. I mean... it said Fushigino Dungeon on it.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapermc wrote:
So I got the druaga PS2 game from Toups for my Birthday... and now I find out it is not going to be good. I am a sad panda. I mean... it said Fushigino Dungeon on it.


aww, it's not a bad game. necessarily. it's just that no game can really compare to furai no shiren.

for what it's worth, nightmare of druaga is gorgeous, and if you're perchance a tower of druaga fan, you will enjoy all the in-referencing.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
if you're perchance a tower of druaga fan, you will enjoy all the in-referencing.
Well, I am not a fan, but I do enjoy a bout of it from time to time. I played it a bit as a kid and got the Namco Collection that had it on it.

EDIT: It was also cool to be the only person in the room who knew the theme music when we entered the new world of Druaga in NamcoXCapcom in a room full of friends.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
Scratchmonkey wrote:
And funnily enough, it's Nethack that comes closer to preset levels than Angband.


well.


If we're talking Vanilla Angband and I was thinking of the way Mine Town is always very similar, along with certain other "themed" Nethack levels. On the other hand, even if Angband levels are all randomly generated, they all have a certain similarity to them.

Plus the Angband Borg is a pretty fun screensaver.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratchmonkey wrote:
Plus the Angband Borg is a pretty fun screensaver.


the borg has always intrigued me but i've never gotten it running.
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Scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
Scratchmonkey wrote:
Plus the Angband Borg is a pretty fun screensaver.


the borg has always intrigued me but i've never gotten it running.


It's pretty simple, if you want me to post a little walkthrough on how to get it up and going.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scratchmonkey wrote:
It's pretty simple, if you want me to post a little walkthrough on how to get it up and going.


i want you to post a little walkthrough on how to get it up and going.

for your old pal geega?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hokay! Here's the quick and dirty way to get the Angband Borg setup:

1. Get Angband, if you don't have it already:

http://www.thangorodrim.net/download.html

And install! It's pretty easy.

2. Get the APWBorg:

http://web.itctel.com/~apwhite/andrew.html

You'll probably want the 3.0.6 basic Borg, which is the one that you can download using the link that says "306 Win9x Executable".

3. The download will be a .rar file. Open it up with WinRAR and do the following:

4. Put the 'Borg.txt' file in your \Angband\lib\user directory.

5. Delete the Angband program in your \Angband directory. Make sure to get rid of the shortcut if you made one.

6. Copy the ANGBAND.exe that came in the .rar file into the \Angband directory. Make a shortcut for it if you want.

7. Run the new .exe and create a character.

8. Once you're in the town, press CTRL-z. There will be some warning messages about running the Borg. Use Enter to go through the messages until you're at a [y/n] prompt about running the Borg.

9. Press 'y'

10. At the Borg prompt, press 'z'. This will start the Borg running. If you need to stop the Borg at any point, whether to quit out of the program or just stare at what equipment it has, press Escape. To start it running again, press CTRL-z and then 'z' again. It should run at a completely ridiculous speed, even if you have a computer from 6 years ago.

There are other Borg commands, although I've never really used them. The guy at the APWBorg Homepage talks about them some, so you can check out that if you want. They should line up with the commands from Ben Harrison's old Borg, so you can also check out his (old) Borg pages for further information.

11. Enjoy the Borg, up until the point where it finds Ringil and you want to throw your computer through the window.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

when i start the borg angband crashes!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn. I've never actually seen that before, not that I'm surprised, given that the Borg is kind of a hack anyway.

I suppose you could try writing the guy who maintains the Borg and see if he's got any suggestions. I'll make the two obvious suggestions of making sure that borg.txt is in the \lib\user\ directory and that you're not playing Angband in an expanded window. Other than that, I don't think I can be of any help.

My latest Borg died on level 1 to a trap. It made me feel a little bit better about how many times that's happened to myself.
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dessgeega
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i was using an expanded window, actually. now it runs fine.

albeit blindingly, stupefyingly fast.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dessgeega wrote:
i was using an expanded window, actually. now it runs fine.

albeit blindingly, stupefyingly fast.


Yeah, there's a way to slow it down so that you can actually watch the Borg play the game by setting your 'Delay' under the Options menu.

I kind of enjoy watching it scream around, especially when it does something ridiculous like hit level 30 in 10 minutes or dies almost instantaneously from starvation.

Supposedly this Borg is actually smart enough to win the game, which is a huge improvement from the earlier Borgs even if it might be a slight indictment of the game itself.
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