The Gamer's Quarter

Ketch · . Joined: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 420

The action doesn't vary enough (overly repetitive).

Too hard and frustrating (not enough checkpoints? can't save progress).

Seen it all before. (Lack of inspiration)

Poor controls.

Any other main factors?

dessgeega · Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:58 am Post subject:

igarashi directed it.

I KID. I KID.

(maybe.)

insulting the player's intelligence can often make a good game mediocre. (see mario vs donkey kong, recent zeldas.)
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Lackey · . Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 1107 Location: Canada

Unthinking acceptence of genre conventions. Not to say that a good game is neccessarily different for the sake of breaking convention, but that the developers are clearly thinking critically about these conventions when they make it.

Also, interesting art direction can really seperate a game from the pack. This one is pretty important for me.
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Ryan - SuperWes' Bane · Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:05 am Post subject:

Timing. You bring out a Jak and Daxter type game, then in the same month you have 5 more just like it (even if they are great games), you just screwed yourself as a game company.

ApM · Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:39 am Post subject:

Here's an interesting question: Somewhere out there, possibly in homebrew-land, is there an Ed Wood of videogame designers?

The only person who comes to mind is the guy who did the Johnny series.

Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

Complex controls can destroy a game. When you are using almost every button on the controller for a different function you designed the game wrong. You aparently designed a game for a keyboard or special controller and failed at designing a console game.

If you have locked controls (i.e. you can't swap a and b) that can ruin a game.

If the game is long and you can't skip dialogue it can ruin it. This is especially true if you have to watch a 5 min cut scene before a difficult battle every time (FFX).

Then just opinions on content.

SuperWes · Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:31 am Post subject:

I've noticed that the only thing that matters at all in game design is pacing. Every other possible issue is either the cause of or result of poor pacing.

-Wes
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dessgeega · Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:01 pm Post subject:

ApM · Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:11 pm Post subject:

No! I keep meaning to and then forget.

I've just left several memos to myself, though.

Lackey · . Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 1107 Location: Canada

I'm impressed by your citation of Spartalacus, ApM. I would also recommend tapeworm/clysm's Johnny's Odessy.

I share a birthdate with Ed Wood.

Also, it happens that you have an easier time making a non-mediocre game when you're establishing a new genre. This is because the expecations aren't there; you're not competing with lots of existing big-budget titles. I'd say an interesting concept can ease a lack of production value.
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| Little bird fighting against a bat sect game |

Swimmy · . Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 990 Location: Fairfax, VA

Popularity can turn a mediocre game into a bad game in my eyes. I wonder how that works?
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"Ayn Rand fans are the old school version of Xenogears fanboys."
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Lackey · . Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 1107 Location: Canada

You take it personally I guess? Overrated things seems to rub many people the wrong way.
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| Little bird fighting against a bat sect game |

Mister Toups

Lackey · . Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 1107 Location: Canada

SuperWes · Last edited by SuperWes on Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:15 pm; edited 3 times in total

Mr. Mechanical · Friendly Stranger Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 1276

What makes a bad (or mediocre) game is usually nothing more than personal perception.

Unless we're talking about Nanobreaker or something like that.

Toups is just fighting the good fight for a more holistic approach to looking at and thinking about games. Stop trying to break it down into chunks because it just doesn't work that way. Unless you work at IGN.

Tablesaw · . Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 303 Location: LACAUSA

Mediocre games are usually incomplete or incohesive imitations of good games. Something central is copied (like a basic gameplay mode), but other, usually subtler, elements are dropped and not compensated for.
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Shapermc · Hot Sake! Joined: 14 Oct 2004 Posts: 6279

Mediocre games are usually carbon copies of other games. Which is why DQ8 is an anamoly... I mean, it is ... yea.

dessgeega

ApM · Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:02 pm Post subject:

dark steve · . Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 1110

Swimmy · . Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 990 Location: Fairfax, VA

dessgeega

SuperWes

RaBeeWilliams · Beatnik Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 274 Location: Thibodaux

xvs07 · . Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 160

For some time now I've been meaning to ask whether flow theory as popularized by Csikszentmihalyi ("she-sent-me-hi" seems to be the consensus) has ever been discussed on this forum in any depth. This seems as good a topic as any.

In two words, flow is optimal experience. The crux of the sensation tends to be a dissociation with time, such that the individual is so immersed in their activity that they seem to control it absolutely and without limit. I'm pretty sure that at least some of us here know what I'm talking about beyond words.

Personally, I think flow is the main reason why we play games (or do anything, really). Then again, I didn't exactly flow through System Shock 2... more sort of crept, bolted, and shrieked like a small child. Love that game.. .... [/ramble]

Anyhow, if anybody's interested I could probably dig up some related material on Google. Then again, so could y'all.

RaBeeWilliams · Beatnik Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 274 Location: Thibodaux

xvs07 · . Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 160

I mostly feel flow with fighters, too, but I've seen people in flow states on both bullet-hell Shrine Maiden shooters and Katamari, and it's just as impressive. Honestly, if you wanna know what flow looks like, go check out Blublu's speedrun of Cave Story. Including Hell, Ballos, and all, a final time of 1:23:23. Nutty thing is, there are probably folks out there who've done better.

According to all credible sources (Csikszentmihalyi, Buddhists, various martial artists, professional athletes and trainers, and, of course, gamers and game designers), flow requires that we know what we're trying to achieve, know how to go about it, and know/believe that it will be both challenging and doable. When all those coincide, that's when magic moments can happen: distractions, concerns, worries, and time itself are forgotten as if they never existed. Indeed, nothing exists in those moments except the task and you, and those are pretty much the same thing at that point.

It's a good thing I'm both busy and lazy, or I'd probably try to beg my way into the next issue with some hairy, ranty article on the subject.

RaBeeWilliams · Beatnik Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 274 Location: Thibodaux

Hey man, if you've got the research and knowlegde to fall back on, you're halfway to writing something.

Edit: And on the topic of timed runs, ever since I showed my friend that episode of Cienimatec on G4 of the world record of completing Super Mario 64 (somewhere under 20 minutes), his brother has been trying to match, or beat that time for quite a while. But I can barley do the "stair glitch" myself (backward up the stairs that lead up to the final Bowser by landing near to base of the steps and pushing jump incredible fast to shoot up the steps and push yourself through the doors), let alone perform it in one try. I think his fastest time was somewhere around 24 minutes, which is still impressive.

ApM · Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:21 pm Post subject:

Toups the Elder · . Joined: 06 Dec 2005 Posts: 7

Most games are bad because they fail to have a coherent, controlled vision and are, instead, a mishmash of misplaced elements produced and executed by a bunch of disparate people (ie the many many people making the game). Think about the best games: they are almost invariably the product of one strong personality with a single vision (Metal Gear, Shadow of the Colossus, Silent Hill).

Thats not to say that this is all that ruins games, or that it even applies to most games, but I think its a very important thing. Even fucking tedious games can work if they present a very well collected vision (Final Fantasy Tactics).
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ApM · Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:51 pm Post subject:

I don't know. I wouldn't call the Reality On The Norm series bad, even if I also wouldn't call it successful.

Lackey · . Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 1107 Location: Canada

Yeah, there's also a lot of really dry games that are probably the result of one strong personality's vision.
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| Little bird fighting against a bat sect game |

dessgeega · Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:31 pm Post subject:

there are also a lot of really masturbatory games that are probably the result of one strong personality's vision.
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dark steve · . Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 1110

Like jizzmoppa?

sawtooth · . Joined: 02 Nov 2005 Posts: 419

It should also be noted that El Ballo is a really terrible game. Ambrosia Software is losing their touch (also in that it seems that they really haven't actually made a game for so long). I doubt it's the failed result of one man's strong vision, but I wouldn't doubt it.

The reason for bad games being the result of one strong personality's vision is that the vision is profoundly mediocre. Too many people's life ambition is to make another zelda game (as opposed to make something of their own).

I enjoy masturbatory games because I have a high tolerance for bullshit. The scale that goes from mediocre to good is pretty subjective.